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General cycling issues (Is Toronto bike friendly?)
- Thread starter rp07
- Start date
TheGrimSweeper
New Member
It's not silly if the purpose of Bill 212 is to reduce congestion.
As it stands, Bill 212 will literally accomplish nothing to help congestion.
Not even counting the 401, DVP, Gardiner, 404, which are the worst spots - let's look at Toronto's busiest intersections.
Here is a list of the 10 Toronto intersections with the most traffic congestion in 2022:
1. Lake Shore Boulevard East & Lower Sherbourne Street
2. Finch Avenue West & Norfinch Drive/Oakdale Road
3. Finch Avenue West & 400 South Finch Westbound Ramp
4. Finch Avenue West & 400 North Finch Eastbound Ramp
5. Finch Avenue West & Signet Drive/Arrow Road
6. Lawrence Avenue East & Scarborough Golf Club Road
7. Lake Shore Boulevard East & Bay Street
8. Steeles Avenue East & Pharmacy Avenue/ Esna Park Drive
9. Islington Avenue & Finch Avenue West
10. Lake Shore Boulevard East & Parliament Street
You know what is not on any of them? Bike Lanes. (Exception of Bay & Sherbourne but those bike lanes did NOT remove a lane of traffic since the road is too narrow). Congestion here is called by cars merging into the one lane that goes onto the Gardiner. Nothing to do with cycling.
So again where is the ROI on spending tens of millions and putting streets back into construction for months? There's no benefit.
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J Bacon
New Member
Like you I also live in Toronto, own a car and take the TTC regularly.
Roads have been static for 40+ years, meanwhile the city has grown very much over that same time period.
Removing traffic lanes in favour of bike lanes does not make sense in this context.
People would not have such ruffled feathers had bike lanes been implemented in a better way, and according to some underlying data.
Blanketing roads with bike lanes is akin to blanketing ideology across the land.
nfitz
Superstar
That surprises me - but I don't often travel through there.
I'm not sure I believe that one. I frequently drove through there on my recent commute. Nothing noteworthy about that one. I've seen far worse - even on days I drove through that one!
evandyk
Senior Member
It actually does, as does removing car lanes in favour of bus lanes, because both bus and bike lanes are more efficient in throughput than car lanes. If you are growing, your transportation design is completely clogged up, and there's no room for more car lanes, you have to look at making more efficient transportation more attractive to more people.
Even if the four car lanes on Bloor/Yonge were perfect right now and the six car lanes on University are perfect right now, car-oriented growth will overwhelm them in the medium-, not even long-term. That's why you need bike lanes. And that's why we will need streetcar-only lanes on King, Queen, Dundas and College eventually, and bus lanes on more suburban streets - even at the expense of car lanes.
As you can see from the last post, the worst non-highway congestion is in places where nobody rides a bike. And you're not going to be adding lanes there while tens of thousands of people move in, so congestion isn't going to get any better by catering to cars. You need to provide alternatives.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
I imagine the majority of congestion hours is actually on local streets, not expressways.
Waiting one extra light cycle adds 1-2 minutes to a drive - to need an extra 1-2 minutes of time on a freeway, you need to travel 1.6 kilometres at 50km/h instead of 100km/h.
That said - bike lanes are definitely not a major contributor writ large across the city, as they simply don’t exist across the city.
They absolutely *can* be major contributors in local areas they do exist in though. Bloor West Village is the prime example.
The discussion should be a lot more nuanced. Certain lanes in certain locations have huge cyclist volumes with minor traffic impacts - they make sense. Lanes like Bloor St in the Annex and through Downtown come to mind.
Others have low cyclist volumes and high traffic impacts - and need a bit more scrutiny. These include lanes like Bloor West Village. They are creating significant amounts of additional local congestion in the area to support a relatively small number of cyclists. Maybe they still make sense - maybe not, but I don’t think criticism needs to be immediately dismissed.
Waiting one extra light cycle adds 1-2 minutes to a drive - to need an extra 1-2 minutes of time on a freeway, you need to travel 1.6 kilometres at 50km/h instead of 100km/h.
That said - bike lanes are definitely not a major contributor writ large across the city, as they simply don’t exist across the city.
They absolutely *can* be major contributors in local areas they do exist in though. Bloor West Village is the prime example.
The discussion should be a lot more nuanced. Certain lanes in certain locations have huge cyclist volumes with minor traffic impacts - they make sense. Lanes like Bloor St in the Annex and through Downtown come to mind.
Others have low cyclist volumes and high traffic impacts - and need a bit more scrutiny. These include lanes like Bloor West Village. They are creating significant amounts of additional local congestion in the area to support a relatively small number of cyclists. Maybe they still make sense - maybe not, but I don’t think criticism needs to be immediately dismissed.
TheGrimSweeper
New Member
The only "better way" would have been removing all on street parking downtown on major roads and putting bike lanes that way. Outside of that there is no new streets or lanes going in, nor should there be.
This is still an option but honestly should be done.
Ontario and Toronto have been car centric for decades. We started building transit in the 50s and 60s then completely stopped until recently. Maintaining the status quo, while thousands of people move into the city will continue to spiral congestion.
Hell, even LA, one of the most car centric cities finally learned this and for a few years now has been building out their subway and LRT lines extensively to what will put Toronto to shame by the end of it.
And GASP - they even have extensive bike lanes on major arterial roads.
Northern Light
Superstar
Just a reminder that the Parking Strategy is out for public input right now....... so this is the time to share such sentiments with the right people.
https://cotsurvey.chkmkt.com/parkingstrategy. Survey closes Nov. 26th.
Reiterated notes about the above.......its lengthy (about 15M), you'll want to fill in the comment boxes to provide details/evidence.
Ontario and Toronto have been car centric for decades. We started building transit in the 50s and 60s then completely stopped until recently. Maintaining the status quo, while thousands of people move into the city will continue to spiral congestion.
Hell, even LA, one of the most car centric cities finally learned this and for a few years now has been building out their subway and LRT lines extensively to what will put Toronto to shame by the end of it.
And GASP - they even have extensive bike lanes on major arterial roads.
To be clear, the LA Plan will not put Toronto to shame, even if implemented, which is a very long way off.
Not all those colourful lines will be rail, and not more than a couple will be subway.
TheGrimSweeper
New Member
Thanks filling it out now.
txlseries4
New Member
How do you make sense of that in the face of recent housing developments with enough bike parking for each unit but the same not being the case for car parking? Bloor between Kipling and Sherbourne will see 23,000+ more units in the near future, and many of those people will have no car but will have bike parking. Let's not forget how much safer for pedestrians with a bicycle lane as a buffer instead of right beside moving cars. With the city growing so much -- with many people who won't have the option to have a car -- how does it make sense in that context to prioritize traffic lanes?
I'll also add:
source
MisterF
Senior Member
This isn't the choice we're facing though. Bike lanes improve economic output and their effect on car traffic is negligible at most. So the choice is:
-remove bike lanes and get the same amount of congestion, worse economic output and worse safety
-keep bike lanes and get the same amount of congestion, better economic output and better safety.
A negligible difference at most and often no difference at all. And that's only for car traffic, which should be the lowest priority mode of transportation in a city.
No, sometimes travel times have been reduced.
You're implying that a growing city should have an increasing number of vehicle lanes. This is completely wrong. Cars are an extremely inefficient use of space and car dependence is a net drain on a city's finances. A growing city needs an increasing about of mass transit, cycling infrastructure, and pedestrian space. Not more car lanes.
nfitz
Superstar
That said, the road widths in LA in the older areas are massive; and the lanes seem much wider too. And so many lanes. Bike lane installation easily, would be an unintended benefit.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
This is clearly a BIA that supports the bike lanes. That’s one. What of the other BIAs along the bike lanes? I’m a big fan and user of our bikes lanes, but you can’t just pick those who share our views.
What I’d like to see Mayor Chow do is ask the Premier for a year’s grace to reduce automobile congestion without removing the bike lanes. This will be achieved through the following….
- Reduce or eliminate construction-related lane closures.
- Sequence traffic signals to expedite rush hour flow
- Enact hardcore traffic enforcement to reduce block boxing and illegal parking/standing (consider to deputize citizenry with ticket bounty). Commercial trucks, shredding trucks, etc. seized for auction.
- Cancel all in-lane patios or other dine TO blockage. Nothing goes in the roadspace.
- Better control of signalized right turns so that pedestrians and cars flow better.
- Reduce or eliminate left turns unless there’s a dedicated left turn lane, especially on streetcar routes.
- As much as possible roadworks or utility work to be undertaken at night or weekends. Every roadwork project to be measured against its impact on congestion and how it can be avoided.
- Expand hours for no parking during rush hour from 3pm to 7pm, along with hardcore enforcement #3.
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TheGrimSweeper
New Member
Agree with all except #4.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
You get dedicated, curb-separated bike lanes for public use, or private businesses occupying roadspace for their patios. You can’t have both.
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