News   Jul 11, 2024
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G-20 Summit in Toronto

Not that I believe anything he says but Bill Blair denies that there was an order to "stand-down". I agree a command was probably given not to do anything but not for the reason that resources were needed to secure the "fence". Again there were more than enough cops to go around. Bill Blair needed and wanted this rampage to justify the suspension of civil liberaties that he requested and was given. Its as simple as that.
Blair has been caught lying about some very simple things a few times in the last few days. The guy is clearly a pathological liar, and would say anything to look better ... though this seems to fail.

But I have no reason to doubt him here.

Sure, there were plenty of cops on bikes, and cops on horses available when the rioting started. Neither group is useful at that point. You need the riot police. Helmets, shields, etc. And you need them in the right place. If they were unable to outflank the rioters, and come south on Yonge, it wouldn't have worked ... all they would have done is chase them faster up Yonge dispersing them further afield.

It certainly something an inquiry needs to look at. But there's nothing to indicate that the inability to surround the rioters was anything more than a huge screw-up.

Most people are quite willing to point out police mistakes left, right, and centre. But when faced with the obvious answer of a police mistake in failing to contain the rioters, out come the tin-foil hats. It's just odd ... I don't get how otherwise intelligent people jump on board such conspiracy theories.

Besides ... if there was any truth to it ... it will be leaking all over the place. The dissent within the police force over the decision to surround the Queen/Spadina protesters for 4-hours on Sunday has been leaked widely. If there was any truth to a much bigger story, then it would be leaking too.
 
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"tSinging Oh Canada and sitting down in a demonstration of peace, for instance, is NOT “causing shit.”"

It is if you were told to leave the area.

Were they asked to leave the area? In the video the police ran in like a herd of bulls with no warning. I wonder who commanded that blunder?
 
Either I'm getting conflicting and erroneous reports or something doesn't add up with this whole police brutality story. Listen, if the police are found to be guilty of abuse in this, then I'll eat my words. I still however have this suspicion that someone was hoping to provoke the police into acting and using force to then try and discredit them in the media later.

One of the forum members said one of their friends got beaten so badly, they sent him to the hospital. I can't find the post though. It's somewhere in the previous pages.
 
Were they asked to leave the area? In the video the police ran in like a herd of bulls with no warning. I wonder who commanded that blunder?

I wonder if they had radio issues or something...

A: Give the protestors three warnings before you take them in.
B: *zzzt* *zzttt* Take them in now? Okay.
 
Blair has been caught lying about some very simple things a few times in the last few days. The guy is clearly a pathological liar, and would say anything to look better ... though this seems to fail.

But I have no reason to doubt him here.

Sure, there were plenty of cops on bikes, and cops on horses available when the rioting started. Neither group is useful at that point. You need the riot police. Helmets, shields, etc. And you need them in the right place. If they were unable to outflank the rioters, and come south on Yonge, it wouldn't have worked ... all they would have done is chase them faster up Yonge dispersing them further afield.

It certainly something an inquiry needs to look at. But there's nothing to indicate that the inability to surround the rioters was anything more than a huge screw-up.

Most people are quite willing to point out police mistakes left, right, and centre. But when faced with the obvious answer of a police mistake in failing to contain the rioters, out come the tin-foil hats. It's just odd ... I don't get how otherwise intelligent people jump on board such conspiracy theories.

Besides ... if there was any truth to it ... it will be leaking all over the place. The dissent within the police force over the decision to surround the Queen/Spadina protesters for 4-hours on Sunday has been leaked widely. If there was any truth to a much bigger story, then it would be leaking too.

I agree with your opinion that Blair is a liar but I do not agree that the cops needed to be suited up in riot gear in order to stop the vandals from throwing bricks through windows! I really don't know what the explanation was for the complete failure of the cops to respond to the vandals on Saturday. We know that most cops when confronted with real danger will run in the opposite direction - Unlike Fireman who run towards the source of danger, most cops are cowards - an example of this are the cops that ran from their cruisers before the cars were torched. I do not, however, believe that ALL cops are cowards. Many of them are pumped up on steroids and are therefore only too happy to "mix it up". So to me the only logical explanation was that they were given an order to stand down (by Blair) so that a rampage would ensue thereby justifying Blair suspension of civil liberties. I cannot see any other explanation.
 
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Some great reporting from the Globe & Mail : http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...20-arrests-not-what-they-seem/article1622761/

Weapons’ seized in G20 arrests not what they seem

Chief Bill Blair, who told reporters the items were evidence of the protesters’ intent, singled out arrows covered in sports socks, which he said were designed to be dipped in a flammable liquid and set ablaze.

However, the arrows belong to Brian Barrett, a 25-year-old landscaper who was heading to a role-playing fantasy game when he was stopped at Union Station on Saturday morning. Police took his jousting gear but let Mr. Barrett go, saying it was a case of bad timing.

The items, which were laid out on tables in the lobby of police headquarters, also included gas masks, cans of spray paint, a replica gun, saws, pocket knives, a staple gun, a drill, a slingshot, chains and handcuffs. However, there were also objects not normally considered dangerous, including bandanas, skateboard and bicycle helmets, golf balls, tennis balls, bamboo poles, goggles, rope and walkie-talkies
 
I agree with your opinion that Blair is a liar but I do not agree that the cops needed to be suited up in riot gear in order to stop the vandals from throwing bricks through windows!

Absolutely! Why would one expect that police officer might think it a good idea to wear protective gear when confronting rioters who are throwing soft, fluffy bricks around?

I really don't know what the explanation was for the complete failure of the cops to respond to the vandals on Saturday.

Because they can't be everywhere at once in significant numbers. When the rioters moved off from King and Bay, where were they heading? Further east? Turning south? Turning north? Doubling back?

Or do the cops have psychics on staff who can tell them where the rioters will be 10 - 15 minutes in the future with absolute certainty? Surely you wouldn't be complaining if the police moved en-mass to College, only to find out the rioters had decided to head to the fence over a mile away.

most cops are cowards - an example of this are the cops that ran from their cruisers before the cars were torched.

Good point. Why wouldn't the one or two cops in a cruiser not choose to stay put when it is being charged and surrounded by dozens, if not hundreds, of masked individuals obviously bent on destruction? They should have been welcoming their car going up in flames with them still inside, or perhaps grab their shotgun and blasted their way out of the mob. What kind of cops we got in this city anyways?

So to me the only logical explanation was that they were given an order to stand down (by Blair) so that a rampage would ensue thereby justifying Blair suspension of civil liberties. I cannot see any other explanation.

Of course it is the only logical explanation when there is not a whit of real evidence to support it beyond your wish that it be so. None of the hundreds or thousands of police involved questioned that decision and spilled the beans to a reporter.
 
Judging by the posts on this thread, the majority of Torontonians, and presumably Canadians, is still very unquestioning of and deferential to authority. While law and order are necessary, blind deference to authority is not a healthy attitude.
 
How are you missing the police brutality in these videos? Have you watched any of them? It's mind-boggling. Does running people over with horses, hitting people in the face with shields, breaking fingers and cutting faces, pushing older women, shooting things at a peaceful protestors' face, etc. not seem at all problematic to you?

What about this one, in particular, or Steve Paikin's account (that is, as well as almost every video in the previous links).

Use of force does not equal brutality. I find it funny people complain when there are mass detentions to sift through to find bad apples, and against targeted arrests from within a crowds. When and how are police supposed to 'get their man'?

As for breaking up peaceable protests, if police think a gathering is dangerous, it is within their every duty to disperse it.

That peaceful protestor, we do not know whether hours before they had been smashing windows. Just because they are peaceful at that point in time does not entitle them to avoid arrest. that they are within a crowd that was 'doing nothing' does not give them immunity.

The protest in front of the Novotel for example - we hear excessive force was used from Paikin, but we do not know the operational context of why the police did stuff. Were there internationally protected persons staying there? Police? Was it impossible to insert themselves between the protestors and the hotel? Was the hotel unable to conduct business? Was it reasonable to assume that people protesting in the middle of the night were a little radical - and that if the protest became a magnet for protestors on Sunday it would be hard to control?

Arguing against excessive force is one thing, I just think people rush to judge any use of force as excessive, any denial of rights as illegal.

Edit: Just want to add one thing, from the CBC, a Q & A with a lawyer about the rights of one under arrest.

This quote is telling when we think about peoples accusations from within detention:
Being arrested is an emotional experience, especially if it's happening for the first time. They're aware something has happened but they're so emotionally overwhelmed they don't really have a good memory of anything in particular and that's common.
 
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I don't have a problem with protesting the police presence but this display was not aimed at the the democratic leaders that commissioned their presence, it is aimed at civil servants doing their job which is simply misguided, as I said. Again, there was plenty of opportunity for 'singing and dancing' in Queen's Park and other parts of the city if misguided 'protestors' hadn't decided to abuse their 'rights' and hijack the day through violence and lawlessness.

These weren't the violent protesters. I'm not sure what their intentions were, but they had every right to do what they did. How exactly were they to aim their protests at the democratic leaders that commissioned the police presence? You know, the ones behind all of those cops. I recognize a few of the faces here from the Streets Are For People crowd, not that I'm attributing this particular protest to that group. It does reveal, however, some of the reasons why people were there and what they hoped to accomplish through their actions - i.e. the streets and the city belong to the people, and therefore the people have a right to access and make a stand in public. They're protesting police with weapons in riot gear in our city, in our streets, interrupting our lives. Their very presence on the street is a rejection of the police presence in the city, a rejection of "designated protest zones" (which, in their eyes, are akin to "designated breathing zones"), it is a form of taking back the streets where they live, work, and play everyday - the streets that were robbed from them for a weekend. Their chant is a rejection of the riot gear, not only as a presence in the city, but as a dehumanizing filter between the citizens and the civil servants who work for them. On an average day, does an innocent person feel threatened by a police officer in his/her normal uniform? Of course not - they're there to help you, and you might even strike up a friendly conversation with them. You can look at them, get to know them, and they form a part of the neighbourhood and the city. When the riot gear goes on, they stop being people you can talk to. You can no longer differentiate between Constable Tom Jenkins or Sergeant Jane Hill - all you see is riot cops as one entity, reminiscent of the Borg hive mind. They stop being there to protect you - they're now there to intimidate you, and in this case to protect a group of powerful people parachuted into your city, your neighbourhood, and your streets without anyone consulting you.

The plus side of all this is that people realize how important the public sphere is. Hence the celebratory atmosphere - the singing and dancing. It's a refusal to be intimidated.

That's my interpretation of what they were trying to do there, not that I know for sure or necessarily agree with all of it, just the principles behind it.

So the right to sing and dance in Toronto is so endangered? Obviously not. Quite frankly this is an insult to those who died for our freedoms, as well as an insult to those who are hired to protect them.

It was endangered last week when police were disrupting civilian activity everywhere. The insult to those who died for our freedom is when we surrender it so easily. The insult is when those who are hired to protect those rights violate them (whether intentionally or due to a lack of resources). Given the reports from independent observers and journalists who were actually there, I sincerely doubt that rights were the first thing on many police officers' minds. If there are officers who were hired to protect our rights, paid for by the taxpayers of this country and city, then they should be fired if they are found to have disregarded the rights and laws they are charged to uphold. The actions of police officers deserve scrutiny precisely for the fact that they're supposed to uphold them. Even the mere suggestion that they might have done something should be of concern to all citizens, and those allegations should be proven or disproven.

I see no substantial difference between this group and the protest organized by the Anglican Church on Sunday. In both cases, the protest engaged in some form of non-violent civil disobedience (neither occurred in the official protest zone), and both were celebratory in nature. The Anglican-organized event marched towards the security fence and, when stopped by the police, sat down and prayed for whatever issues they cared about. These protesters were also confronted by the police and peacefully reacted through song and dance about the issues they care about. Were the Anglicans provoking a police response? No. Were these people? No.
 
^^^ Asterix: fantastic and entertaining post! agree with you 100%! especially the part about the cop cars... you've outlined the options perfectly.
 
The protest in front of the Novotel for example - we hear excessive force was used from Paikin, but we do not know the operational context of why the police did stuff.
What possible operational context could explain during a peaceful protest, why police would punch a journalist in the stomach, who was not being violent, and slam his head to the pavement ... to such a degree that another officer would then immediately tell another journalist that the first officer shouldn't have done that?
 
the context may have been that he was obstructing the police from doing their job. no context is given in Paikin's account.
The context seemed pretty clear on the live episode of Agenda that TVO aired at 8 pm on Monday. Rosenfeld gave a detailed clear description of the events, and Paikin only raised one issue with the description, when he got Rosenfeld to admit he probably used an expletive in his discussions with the officer, before the officer started hitting him. How much more context do you need?
 

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