G-20 Summit in Toronto

[toraerach]

The problem with all of the complaints is multifold:

Yeah, it really is too bad that they didn't let journalists and impartial observers into the detention centre to report the facts back to us. Oh wait, they did...as detainees.

Even if 99% of the allegations aren't true (which I doubt, unless the detainees somehow all got together to get their story straight), even one human rights violation is too many. We should expect those charged with upholding the law to abide to it at all times. We cannot just chalk this up to "mistakes." Either the police officers who committed these violations were ignorant or willfully ignored the law of the land. As public servants and figures who've been entrusted with authority, they must be held to a higher standard than the protesters.

To illustrate my point with a pretty simple analogy: let's say we're in a classroom and a student calls the teacher a "fat bitch." Does that justify the teacher calling her a "cracked out whore" in front of the whole class? Does it justify tackling the student to the ground? Does that justify locking the student up in the broom closet for 18 hours with minimal food and water (and no insulin, she shouldn't have mouthed off if she was diabetic)?

If someone gets mugged in a bad neighbourhood, is it their fault because they should've known better than walk down that street after dark?

And before we write off protest completely (even violent protest), let's recall what anniversary was celebrated yesterday. This is not a justification of what happened here this past weekend, but more of a response to individuals posting in this thread who seem to think protest is by definition a bad thing.

 

[Jonny5]

OMG Paul Martin was right!

[video=youtube;uMsqEph7a8I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMsqEph7a8I[/video]

 

[TOareaFan]

Bruises, scrapes, eye-witness statements collaborating the events by award-winning journalists. What more do you want? The police were beating people. At least on Saturday evening.

From the destruction of property and peace in the city Saturday night....I would have to say they were not "beating" enough people on Saturday night.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

buildup:

Perhaps the police who were on the receiving end of thousands of equally annoying comments also lost interest in dialogue.

As those imparted with the authority to use violence, that's a really sorry post-hoc justification of any errors. Personally, I am less concerned with the actions of the police as a whole than the political drivers behind their actions - and I think that's an aspect that requires close scrutiny.

There is also the issue of fairness - how much did Huntsville et al recieve in terms of Federal funding for sprucing up? How much did Toronto get? These are questions that haven't been asked but should damn well be. If the whole point of the exercise is PR, then please tell me why the city didn't get a buck to do so? Last time I checked, MTCC isn't exactly the greatest venue - the north building looked the same as it did in 83'.

TOareafan:

I would have to say they were not "beating" enough people on Saturday night.

Let's start with the fool who think bringing the event to the city is a good idea.

AoD

 

[spider]

I have no problem with the performance of the Police officers on the ground and in danger, they were required to be there, the idiot protesters/wannabees and spectators were not.

The bad actions committed by both sides was a consequence of allowing the situation to escalate out of control. The lack of response to the violence on Saturday was obviously a calculated strategy that misfired badly. I suggest that the Mayor ordered the Police Chief to not respond and they both should be fired for "rolling the dice".

We are told that the Police claimed to have had no knowledge of the Black Block's action, I can't believe that no calls were made to 911, if calls were made how were they handled?

 

[js97]

The most disgusting part of this whole thing was to see people head down the protest area and be a part of the 'riot', especially after seeing 5 police cruisers being torched the day before. It appears that every pretend wannabe 'revolutionist' with too much time on their hands, and not enough excitement in their life, wanted to be a part of the riots, maybe tell all their friends about their 'war' stories?

Sign up for afghanistan if you want excitment. Don't go 'thrill seeking' to a 'protest' that is well known for it's violence against property. If anything, it shows the lack of character for pretty much most of these people that where down there as 'observers' on sunday. That's like complicit involvement.


And those that say we shouldn't have had the G20 summit downtown because of the well known history of violence...

well on that same measure, people should not go and protest because of the well known history of violence.. no difference.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

spider:

The G20 closed down the requisite chunk of the city - why should anyone else leave other parts of town just because there is a protest around? Ordinary citizens have every right and reason to be there - you aren't in Pyongyang.

The lack of response to the violence on Saturday was obviously a calculated strategy that misfired badly. I suggest that the Mayor ordered the Police Chief to not respond and they both should be fired for "rolling the dice".

Really, for someone not in the loop enough to know who ordered whom to do what, you certainly made some rather dramatic claims. And misfired badly? Not one attempt to breach the defensive perimeter was successful.

And please, all this talk of revolution and all they've managed are broken windows and what, 3 police cruisers that were torched? Some revolution - they can't even plan it right.

And those that say we shouldn't have had the G20 summit downtown because of the well known history of violence...
well on that same measure, people should not go and protest because of the well known history of violence.. no difference.

Holding the conference is not a fundamental right - protesting and freedom of movement is.

AoD

 

[Coltaine79]

I heard that contained within the $1.1 billion G20 Summit budget, there's $55 million set aside for contigency. Couldn't businessowner compensations come out of that? At any rate, I heard on the news that the total amount of damage including the torched cop cruisers is only $500k. Sounds kinda low. I also wonder how businesses will go about assessing lost revenue overall during the summit.

What? So the private insurance adjusters have *already* completed their estimates? Isn't that a bit early? It's only been ONE business day since the summit!

I'll assume that figure only refers to the damage to the public assets... i.e. cost of cleaning the streets Sunday morning, replacing the cars, removing the cars, etc. These figures could have been produced much more quickly by the City since they were doing that work.

OTOH if that does include the cost of repairing all the private businesses, then it's a bargain. $500k is a drop of a drop of a drop (in a bucket). Let's pay it out ASAP so these businesses can get back to 100% and get back to work at keeping our economy healthy.

 

[tkip]

Reports....

I just want to respond to the posts that police were mistreating protestors arrested and claims of beatings, body searches and sexual assault. Right now they're allegations. And people have to remember this. I think people are ready to believe anything and condemn officers because they don't like a show of force.

Nothing has been proven and I am extremely skeptical of people, having caused trouble and damage, were arrested and detained then claiming abuse and assault and horrific conditions when later released. Personally I think many of these individuals are just whinng to distract from their own questionable behaviour during the summit.

There might have been some unsettling (still disputed) acts committed by the police but this is clearly outnumered by the huge number of people that treated the summit and protests like some kind of party, made the situation more difficult for the police with their own questionable and let's face it, unethical behaviour that was so widespread.

 

[js97]

Holding the conference is not a fundamental right - protesting and freedom of movement is.

AoD

How is it not a fundamental right? -freedom of peaceful assembly by the world leaders.
When protests become a pre-cursor to violence and end that way, then it's not a fundamental right. The key word is 'peaceful' just like it was supposed to be on Saturday.

 

[Coltaine79]

Have yet to see those videos. Links?

Any plans to leave the Holodeck and join the rest of us on Planet Reality?

how do you get "his experience at the Novotel was scarier than ethnic cleansing in Bosnia" ?

it's quite possible to feel somewhat safe in a nation that is at war if you're in the right location and with security escorts. also, was he witnessing ethnic cleansing? was it happening a few feet away from him? did he even say "scarier than ethnic cleansing in Bosnia" ?

Yup, you'd need to have failed several years of English Comprehension to not understand Paikin's position in his interview.

If anything, it shows the lack of character for pretty much most of these people that where down there as 'observers' on sunday. That's like complicit involvement.

Hey, just because you were busy hiding under your bed for the whole weekend does not mean that everyone else needs to do the same.

 

[Redroom Studios]

^^^ tkip - exactly right re the allegations of detainees.

re: the argument that people have freedom of movement... that is true under normal day to day conditions. When you place yourself in a crowd that is in a showdown with police and the police give the orders to move and clear the area, that overrides any freedom of movement or right to peacefully protest. If you ignore those orders then you do so at your own peril.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

How is it not a fundamental right? -freedom of peaceful assembly by the world leaders.

Yes, but would anyone else engaging in freedom of peaceful assembly require spending 1B+ in security or the gross intrusion, if not outright violation of the rights of others?

When protests become a pre-cursor to violence and end that way, then it's not a fundamental right. The key word is 'peaceful' just like it was supposed to be on Saturday.

Nice to conflate protests with violence by default. Like Sunday at Spadina, perhaps? What is the justification for the actions undertaken, and punishment for violating those fundamental rights?

AoD

 

[OttoSchloss]

^^^ tkip - exactly right re the allegations of detainees.

re: the argument that people have freedom of movement... that is true under normal day to day conditions. When you place yourself in a crowd that is in a showdown with police and the police give the orders to move and clear the area, that overrides any freedom of movement or right to peacefully protest. If you ignore those orders then you do so at your own peril.

The point you're missing is that the police don't arbitrarily have the right to determine when and where people can peacefully protest in a liberal democracy. Not moving is the protesters inalienable right.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

When you place yourself in a crowd that is in a showdown with police and the police give the orders to move and clear the area, that overrides any freedom of movement or right to peacefully protest. If you ignore those orders then you do so at your own peril.

Yes and no - the orders of the police must be justified - which it is on Saturday, and not on Sunday. Without justification when violating rights, having rights becomes meaningless - which you surely don't suggest being the case, no?

AoD