G-20 Summit in Toronto

[Second_in_pie]

How is it not a fundamental right? -freedom of peaceful assembly by the world leaders.
When protests become a pre-cursor to violence and end that way, then it's not a fundamental right. The key word is 'peaceful' just like it was supposed to be on Saturday.

Versus the freedom of peaceful assembly for everyone else? If the world leaders had a problem, they'd just call in their security forces. Who are peaceful protesters supposed to call in when they're being treated unjustly by the police?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

With authority and the monopoly on legally sancitioned violence on behalf of the state comes greater, not less responsiblity.

AoD

 

[christiesplits]

As a bit of an aside, it is very interesting seeing the love affair from the left for Chief Bill Blair come to a sudden halt.

Remember it was only five years ago when Fantino got turfed by Miller for a less abrasive and much more community-minded replacement in Blair. To this day, even among disenchanted former Miller supporters, it was one of the Mayor's biggest accomplishments.

The Star and NOW applauded Blair for increasing the diversity of the force and performing outreach to communities with historically poor police relations, such as inner city youth and the gay community. He successfully reduced gun crime in the city and has been one of the country's leading police officials advocating for strict gun control.

The last 72 hours have changed everything. I can already see Blair's photoshopped mug on this Thursday's NOW edition.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think Blair is caught in between a rock and a hard place - and all things considered, he did an acceptable job. That said, the question of arbitary arrests and intrusion on rights must be answered.

AoD

 

[spaced]

I think I've swung the whole political range over the last few days and swung back to (what I consider) centre. From wanting to retaliate, to conspiracies, back to thinking it wasn't that bad. If anything pretty tame outcome (including the damage and the illegal actions from some police).
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/06/28/jonathan-kay-toronto-city-of-wimps/

 

[Jonny5]

I think Blair is caught in between a rock and a hard place - and all things considered, he did an acceptable job. That said, the question of arbitary arrests and intrusion on rights must be answered.

AoD

Is there an explanation of the chain of command for the summit anywhere? While Blair had authority, he may not have been ultimately in charge or issued instructions to officers? Who, if anyone, was actually calling the shots needs to be investigated. I can't believe that the RCMP would take a backseat to a police chief.

 

[Darwinkgo]

The point you're missing is that the police don't arbitrarily have the right to determine when and where people can peacefully protest in a liberal democracy. Not moving is the protesters inalienable right.

No rights of Canadian are inalienable. Violations of rights are allowed as long as they pass the Oakes Test. People don't have a right to occupy a place indefinitely even if in protest, and on public property. In a protest, the police's duty to preserve order takes a higher order of precedence than the right against search & seizure, freedom of movement, etc.

 

[js97]

I think Blair is caught in between a rock and a hard place - and all things considered, he did an acceptable job. That said, the question of arbitary arrests and intrusion on rights must be answered.

AoD

I would think something like that came all the way from the TOP.

I would guess the Mayor of the city had some influence/say in that sort of thing.

Is there an explanation of the chain of command for the summit anywhere? While Blair had authority, he may not have been ultimately in charge or issued instructions to officers? Who, if anyone, was actually calling the shots needs to be investigated.
I can't believe that the RCMP would take a backseat to a police chief.

The RCMP is more concerned about the security zones. TPS is charge of policiing everyone outside of the security zone.

 

[Redroom Studios]

The point you're missing is that the police don't arbitrarily have the right to determine when and where people can peacefully protest in a liberal democracy. Not moving is the protesters inalienable right.

I would suggest that they do.... and to describe their efforts to clear away protestors in a confrontational showdown on public streets as arbitrary is a bit of a stretch. Arresting non compliant citizens is a legitimate action. In regards to the comments about "they were just doing nothing": as was described, many people were taken into custody under the charge of disturbing the peace or similar to simply get them off the streets and restore order to the downtown. People who tried to take these showdowns late into the night were morons. Judging by the overall calmer mood on Sunday, mass arrests made on Sat night were well justified.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

js97:

I know you wanted to blame the mayor, but for this event, he isn't the top of the food chain when it comes to security.

Redroom:

Judging by the overall calmer mood on Sunday, mass arrests made on Sat night were well justified.

Given the chaos on Saturday, erring is understandable - but what of Sunday?

AoD

 

[js97]

js97:

I know you wanted to blame the mayor, but for this event, he isn't the top of the food chain when it comes to security.

AoD

I'm not blaming anyone.. I'm the one that thinks the police did a great job... you are the one that's looking for some accountability

but this is another classic Miller administration tactic isn't it?
Police on the ground are just grunts, there was no threat at the time to the security fence, they where not even close to the fence.

To think that the Mayor of the city had NO input is naive or just flat out scandalous.

If they where charging the fence, yes, I can understand it coming directly from the RCMP, but at the corner of spadina and queen? (which is outside of the security zone by the way)


And as per the plethora of communication that was out there... security outside of the zone is policed by TPS, not RCMP.

Perhaps look at the facts intead of being so blinded by ideology.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I'm not blaming anyone.. I'm the one that thinks the police did a great job... you are the one that's looking for some accountability

Someone looking for accountability without even bother with going through the process of inquiry - which follows the rest of your points:

but this is another classic Miller administration tactic isn't it?

Looks like you have already made up your mind - and you're accusing me of being ideological? And do you know what the priorities are? Minimizing the loss of life and maintaining the integrity of the perimeter? Certainly if those are the goals the TPS has been spectacularly successful. I am sure the TOP has nothing to do with that, just saying.

AoD

 

[Redroom Studios]

on the issue of chain of command, I would agree with Alvin that Miller likely would not have been involved in giving out specific orders or tactics. Anyone who watched the coverage on tv Saturday knows that Miller was constantly being interviewed by all the various networks after the violence had started and was phyically incapable of giving security directives. If anything he took on a public relations role at that point.

 

[gristle]

Seriously, how many times do we need to re-iterate this point? The crowd was doing NOTHING BAD. If we repeat this a million times, will you get the point?

You characterize the crowd as doing "nothing bad," but there was a group of people carrying out questionable activities near a scene where there had been violence and destruction only 24 hours before. The crowd in question was moving around town and blocking streets. They had no issued permit to carry out a march on city streets. Once they took up a position at Queen and Spadina, they were asked multiple times to move by the police - and didn't. Bystanders stood by assuming that they could automatically be distinguished from those protesting. All the while, some of those protesting were attempting to marshal others to come and join this impromptu protest.

So many ended up being held by police, which the police are allowed to do. After background checks were carried out, a majority of the people were let go.

So the lesson is: if you are going to carry out an impromptu protest, block city streets and transit lines, refuse to move when asked by the police - and do all this in the general area of prior violence and destruction of public property, and on a weekend where everyone is aware that there is a heightened level of security due to the visit of 20 global leaders - you should not be surprised if you are stopped and checked by the police. This group called attention to themselves (which is what protests are intended to do), and the police responded (which is what the police do).

Seriously, but how many times does this have to be re-iterated?

 

[Peepers]

Bill Blair has now ADMITTED to deceiving the public over the 5 metre law. Apparently there was no such law OUTSIDE the fence only INSIDE the fence.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...n-expanded-security-fence-law/article1622864/

Bill Blair cannot be allowed to keep his job after this admission. The police services board should fire him immediately.