Finch West Line 6 LRT

[TheTigerMaster]

For all the complaining people do about the speeds of this thing, it's worth noting that the Finch LRT will be faster than just about all of our regular service and express, weekday surface transit routes. Furthermore the differences in speed between the modes arent as great as people make them out to be. A Finch West subway line would travel 5 km in 10 mins. A Finch West LRT would, with all proposed stops, make that same trip in 13.5 mins. In terms of absolute values, the speed difference (3.5 mins) is small. Removing a three or four stops or grade separating an intersection or two won't turn this line into a rocket. For all that effort you'd be lucky to shave 60 seconds off the trip time.

What this LRT isn't is some kind of crosstown express line. It was never intended to do that and it never will be that. We must avoid trying to twist this infrastructure into something its not. We've never designed our subway or LRT networks to be crosstown express lines; there are more appropriate modes for those trips.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's also worth noting that the average speeds of 22 kph were computed for only for peak hour. For the other three quarters of the day, travel time should be faster as dwell times at stops will be reduced. Furthermore, if adaptive signal priority is installed along the Finch West corridor (SCOOT), there might be potential for further reductions on red light times for the Finch Line, wherever there exists less car volume on cross streets, especially outside of peak hours.

 

[Adjei]

I'm conflicted on the topic of stop spacing. Not just on this line, but Sheppard East and Eglinton East too. They're just so damn close together. How far apart are other cities setting their stops? I haven't taken a close look, I'll admit, but at a glance it looks like they are much further apart.

These Toronto LRTs seem to not be aiming for a very high bar (i.e true rapid transit), but rather as just a higher capacity, somewhat more reliable bus. And considering much of the anti-LRT rhetoric has been "They're just fancy streetcars," Toronto really isn't doing themselves any favours by basically proving them right. Its not that bad on Finch, but in particular, the spacing on the planned Sheppard East is ridiculous. That isn't rapid transit.

Its fine to say "We did the math and the extra stop spacing doesn't really add much more time when you account for the time it takes more people to board at each stop." (Assuming those TTC numbers aren't just a BS way to justify not having to run busses along the same corridor). But it sure does make the experience of riding the LRT more painful - especially if they screw up the traffic priority, which in all likelihood, they will. Like on the waterfront, like on St. Clair, like on Spadina. And the experience of the service matters. Rapid Transit shouldn't just appeal to people who have no other choice, but to everyone as a viable means of transportation.

Selling these LRT lines as rapid transit and then treating them as a high end bus service is wrong. I honestly don't give a damn if they need to run busses along the same route to make up for it - they do it on the other rapid transit routes, they can do it on this one too.

The stop spacing might be fine if they really go in on transit priority. But you're damning these lines long term after any expansions across the city, as getting across the city in them will be a mind numbing endeavour. I'd say the spacing should be now smaller than what is done on the BD line.

EDIT: To be clear, I am aware of the drawbacks of all this, of course. It would cost more money to run additional busses, and less stops = less immediate access. But again, this is supposed to be a rapid transit line. That's what it boils down to. And those just happen to be drawbacks of all rapid transit. I don't think a jack-of-all-trades, master of none approach is right here. They need to decide, is this a rapid transit route, or is it a local route.

Ok which stops will you remove?

 

[Adjei]

Tuck, I did a quick analysis of numbers earlier!

=====
LA Gold Line 1.8 km per stop with parts elevated
Calgary C train 1.3 km per stop
LA Expo Line 1.3 km per stop with parts elevated
Waterloo LRT 1.2 km per stop
Ottawa LRT 1.0 km per stop with parts underground
Mississauga LRT 1.0 km per stop
-----
Finch LRT 0.6 km per stop with no grade separation
Sheppard LRT 0.5 km per stop with no grade separation
=====

But agreed. If this is just a local service bus replacement tram (nothing wrong with that if busses are overflowing and BRT won't help), then we shouldn't be misleading saying its a good replacement for the Sheppard Subway, which is much more of a rapid service.

But if it is meant to be a crosstown connector (seems to be sold as such), then spacing/signal priority/operations really needs to be looked at.

If Finch and Eglinton East doesn't live up to the hype, there's no way the other LRT lines will get built.

Which stops will you remove?

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I'm conflicted on the topic of stop spacing. Not just on this line, but Sheppard East and Eglinton East too. They're just so damn close together. How far apart are other cities setting their stops? I haven't taken a close look, I'll admit, but at a glance it looks like they are much further apart.

If you are referring to Eglinton East as in 'Crosstown East', then the stop-spacing is actually a lot higher than you think.

Scarborough is a big place. Most of the stations are 600+ meters apart, similar to Bloor-Danforth subway.

 

[crs1026]

What this LRT isn't is some kind of crosstown express line. It was never intended to do that and it never will be that. We must avoid trying to twist this infrastructure into something its not. We've never designed our subway or LRT networks to be crosstown express lines; there are more appropriate modes for those trips.

Wise counsel. This also requires some restraint by the LRT boosters, who too often react to detractors with a "You don't know what LRT is" speech. Let's not oversell LRT.

The devil is in the details on this. The only way to have a sane discussion is to have the planners cough up exact details - traffic lights, u turn lanes, stops, etc. Then we can talk realistically about what it is and what it won't be, and what changes are advisable.

The latest documents on Eglinton West seemed to acknowledge this - they talked about the need for micro-simulation studies to establish if the fine details actually work. The fine points will make or break this line also.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The devil is in the details on this. The only way to have a sane discussion is to have the planners cough up exact details - traffic lights, u turn lanes, stops, etc. Then we can talk realistically about what it is and what it won't be, and what changes are advisable.

Actually if you look at the Finch West EA webpage, there are hundred of pages of details about traffic lights, u turns and other traffic management. They were meticulously detailed for each intersection.

 

[crs1026]

Actually if you look at the Finch West EA webpage, there are hundred of pages of details about traffic lights, u turns and other traffic management. They were meticulously detailed for each intersection.

Yes - it's pretty thorough from a traffic perspective. But unless I'm missing something, there isn't much backing up their assessment of overall LRT speed - just extrapolation from previous studies. It will be interesting to see what the end travel time actually is.

I wonder if there is a worst case analysis - if an LRT hits every red light, with the maximum dwell time, what's the maximum potential travel time? If you assign a probability to these (nothing is red all the time), what's the result? I didn't see that kind of data in the EA. Am I missing it?

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yes - it's pretty thorough from a traffic perspective. But unless I'm missing something, there isn't much backing up their assessment of overall LRT speed - just extrapolation from previous studies. It will be interesting to see what the end travel time actually is.

I wonder if there is a worst case analysis - if an LRT hits every red light, with the maximum dwell time, what's the maximum potential travel time? If you assign a probability to these (nothing is red all the time), what's the result? I didn't see that kind of data in the EA. Am I missing it?

- Paul

I know they looked at each intersection, and calculated the average delay with different signal priority implementations at each intersection. This assessment even factors the acceleration of the trains. I believe they used that data to contribute to the assessment of average speed on the Finch West Line.

For stop spacing, they used the SELRT as a proxy for LRT likes across the city, to see how dwell times would be impacted by removing stops, and to determine a general optimal spacing. I know this was used to determine spacing, but I'm not confident that it was used to determine speed for the line.

I'd recommend rereading the relevant sections of the EA. Once they knew the projected demand at each stop, it would be a fairly simple calculation for average dwell times at these stops. I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't factor in dwell times at individual stops to determine average speed.

 

[Tuck]

For all the complaining people do about the speeds of this thing, it's worth noting that the Finch LRT will be faster than just about all of our regular service and express, weekday surface transit routes. Furthermore the differences in speed between the modes arent as great as people make them out to be. A Finch West subway line would travel 5 km in 10 mins. A Finch West LRT would, with all proposed stops, make that same trip in 13.5 mins. In terms of absolute values, the speed difference (3.5 mins) is small. Removing a three or four stops or grade separating an intersection or two won't turn this line into a rocket. For all that effort you'd be lucky to shave 60 seconds off the trip time.

What this LRT isn't is some kind of crosstown express line. It was never intended to do that and it never will be that. We must avoid trying to twist this infrastructure into something its not. We've never designed our subway or LRT networks to be crosstown express lines; there are more appropriate modes for those trips.

The question is... is that the right approach? Its fine to say its not designed to be sued a certain way. But you can say the same thing about the other RT lines, yet people regularly commute across the city with them.

Its fine, for now - as a stub line. But if it ever is extended, it becomes less useful. The line is 10 km, not 5. That means the difference is 7 minutes, not 3.5. Add in the connection to Finch station, and we're close to 14 minutes. It adds up.

Wise counsel. This also requires some restraint by the LRT boosters, who too often react to detractors with a "You don't know what LRT is" speech. Let's not oversell LRT.

The devil is in the details on this. The only way to have a sane discussion is to have the planners cough up exact details - traffic lights, u turn lanes, stops, etc. Then we can talk realistically about what it is and what it won't be, and what changes are advisable.

The latest documents on Eglinton West seemed to acknowledge this - they talked about the need for micro-simulation studies to establish if the fine details actually work. The fine points will make or break this line also.

- Paul

LRT can be whatever we want it to be. Other cities in our province seem to be using it as a full-on rapid transit network. No reason we can't either. Its entirely by choice/design.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The question is... is that the right approach? Its fine to say its not designed to be sued a certain way. But you can say the same thing about the other RT lines, yet people regularly commute across the city with them.

About half of trips are local in nature. Some of the remainder are more regional in nature, for example a trip from Jane and Finch to downtown (2 km on the LRT). But a small minority riders will be using trips that involve riding the Finch Line as an end-to-end 10 km crosstown commuter line. It's better we cater to the vast majority, rather than the small minority of riders that will be going from end-to-end on this.

I'll also repeat that even if you were to remove a lot of the stops, you'd likely be shaving a minute or two off end-to-end travel times. There isn't any circumstance where this lane will well cater to crosstown, long distance travel.

Its fine, for now - as a stub line. But if it ever is extended, it becomes less useful. The line is 10 km, not 5. That means the difference is 7 minutes, not 3.5. Add in the connection to Finch station, and we're close to 14 minutes. It adds up.

Like I said above, it's a small minority of trips that are end-to-end. The "delay" for the typical rider will be closer to 3.5 min

 

[TheTigerMaster]

LRT can be whatever we want it to be. Other cities in our province seem to be using it as a full-on rapid transit network. No reason we can't either. Its entirely by choice/design.

There was no fesiable way to achieve that on the Finch West corridor.

 

[Rainforest]

Its fine, for now - as a stub line. But if it ever is extended, it becomes less useful. The line is 10 km, not 5. That means the difference is 7 minutes, not 3.5. Add in the connection to Finch station, and we're close to 14 minutes. It adds up.

Fair enough, but nothing prevents designing future sections of this line with wider stop spacing. For example, it could operate semi-express from Bathurst to Yonge and then to Don Mills, stopping at major intersections only and perhaps even using the Hydro Corridor. Local service between Bathurst and Don Mills would be provided by a short bus route, while the LRT would switch back to a more local mode east of Don Mills.

As of connection to Finch subway station, its design will be independent on the stop spacing.

 

[Rainforest]

By removing those stops, some people would end up walking 5 extra minutes. Plus if the traffic signal is still there, I don't see how they'll save 40sec.

40 sec is average. Sometimes it will be zero (either noone boarding / alighting, or the vehicle would stop anyway for the traffic light). Sometimes it will be as much as 80 s or more (the vehicle would catch a green and not have to slow down at all, if there was no stop).

Btw, 40 sec per stop is my estimate, but it is based on TTC's modeling for Sheppard LRT (23 kph for 400m stop spacing, and 27 kph for 800m spacing).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The western section of Finch LRT (Keele to Humber College) has a sensible stop spacing; probably, close to optimal. Removing a stop saves about 40 s on average.

Do you have a source for that? Because, off the top of my head, that does not appear to be consistent with the results of the Sheppard East LRT stop s