Finch West Line 6 LRT

[Bojaxs]

The fact that no effort was made to manage the expectations of the public suggests they thought they would get away with this abysmal performance and didn't need to pre-empt calls to improve. People will give grace when you show contrition and intent to improve out of your own initiative and not because you were shamed into it.

Because the politicians and planners who attend the ribbon cutting ceremonies for these projects hold the very people, who will rely on these projects, in contempt. They just want your vote. Both left & right.

The fact that no effort was made to replicate "best practices" from other LRT systems around the world shows that this transit project was never about giving the residents of NW Toronto rapid transit. It was about creating jobs and giving millions to insiders who may or may not have started up a construction company around the same time these transit lines got announced. Corruption & political favours.

The Union for the TTC operators must be happy that they now have more union jobs. Shuttle buses continue to run throughout the day parallel with the LRTs. Don't be surprised as we approach the date to wind down the day time shuttle buses on Finch, the Union steps in and says we should maintain them.

Metrolinx lied through their teeth to the people of NW Toronto. promising "this" and promising "that". Meanwhile, behind closed doors they knew the Line wouldn't live up to the hype and did everything they could to keep people quiet. Because they operate as a secret society.

All in all, the "experts" and big wigs will get around to fixing the line.....eventually. In the mean time, deal with it!

As you guys can tell, I'm quite cynical at this point. Even though I've slagged on both Line 6 & 5 for years on this forum, I had hoped to be proven wrong. Unfortunately Line 6 ended up being everything I expected it to be.

EDIT: Look what Melbourne spent the last 10 years building while we spent that same time building a glorified streetcar that runs under the city and stops at traffic lights (Line 5).

 

[urbanclient]

Hushhh, we're not allowed to compare Toronto's pathetic transit buildout since 2002 to roughly equal sized cities—much less smaller, less dense cities, in similar sociopolitical environments like Sydney and Melbourne! The ghost of "mostest ambitious" will come haunt us again, just you see. GO Expansion [262 km descoped down to 100 km completed by 2040] is one of the most ambitious regional rail projects in the worldddddd Oh my gawd did you hear that?

Because the politicians and planners who attend the ribbon cutting ceremonies for these projects hold the very people, who will rely on these projects, in contempt. They just want your vote. Both left & right.

The fact that no effort was made to replicate "best practices" from other LRT systems around the world shows that this transit project was never about giving the residents of NW Toronto rapid transit. It was about creating jobs and giving millions to insiders who may or may not have started up a construction company around the same time these transit lines got announced. Corruption & political favours.

The Union for the TTC operators must be happy that they now have more union jobs. Shuttle buses continue to run throughout the day parallel with the LRTs. Don't be surprised as we approach the date to wind down the day time shuttle buses on Finch, the Union steps in and says we should maintain them.

Metrolinx lied through their teeth to the people of NW Toronto. promising "this" and promising "that". Meanwhile, behind closed doors they knew the Line wouldn't live up to the hype and did everything they could to keep people quiet. Because they operate as a secret society.

All in all, the "experts" and big wigs will get around to fixing the line.....eventually. In the mean time, deal with it!

As you guys can tell, I'm quite cynical at this point. Even though I've slagged on both Line 6 & 5 for years on this forum, I had hoped to be proven wrong. Unfortunately Line 6 ended up being everything I expected it to be.

EDIT: Look what Melbourne spent the last 10 years building while we spent that same time building a glorified streetcar that runs under the city and stops at traffic lights (Line 5).

After being thoroughly talked down to last time... I could never. I only compare Toronto to more populous, denser cities now...

 

[ARG1]

Because the politicians and planners who attend the ribbon cutting ceremonies for these projects hold the very people, who will rely on these projects, in contempt. They just want your vote. Both left & right.

The fact that no effort was made to replicate "best practices" from other LRT systems around the world shows that this transit project was never about giving the residents of NW Toronto rapid transit. It was about creating jobs and giving millions to insiders who may or may not have started up a construction company around the same time these transit lines got announced. Corruption & political favours.

The Union for the TTC operators must be happy that they now have more union jobs. Shuttle buses continue to run throughout the day parallel with the LRTs. Don't be surprised as we approach the date to wind down the day time shuttle buses on Finch, the Union steps in and says we should maintain them.

Metrolinx lied through their teeth to the people of NW Toronto. promising "this" and promising "that". Meanwhile, behind closed doors they knew the Line wouldn't live up to the hype and did everything they could to keep people quiet. Because they operate as a secret society.

All in all, the "experts" and big wigs will get around to fixing the line.....eventually. In the mean time, deal with it!

As you guys can tell, I'm quite cynical at this point. Even though I've slagged on both Line 6 & 5 for years on this forum, I had hoped to be proven wrong. Unfortunately Line 6 ended up being everything I expected it to be.

EDIT: Look what Melbourne spent the last 10 years building while we spent that same time building a glorified streetcar that runs under the city and stops at traffic lights (Line 5).

Ok all things considered, Melbourne is honestly a pretty bad example since at the end of the day, Metro Tunnel and Skyrail are the only projects they're really working on (everything else is deferred or in a weird limbo zone), and honestly while it is a big and important project its value proposition has been pretty terrible and is more of a capacity project than anything. As it stands right now Toronto/GTHA has a much more flashy and transformative suite of projects in the works than Melbourne.

That's not to say we're doing everything right, far from it, but a few fumbles and bad projects here and there doesn't really diminish what we're accomplishing overall. There's no reason to declare that the sky is falling and that we're doomed because Finch West was underwhelming, and we kicked DB out (which based off reports I keep getting from many sources really seems to have been overall a good decision).

 

[FW36]

In the short term to improve service, the Finch West LRT should be given priority when approaching intersections, operated at a higher speed, and reduced dwelling times at stations.

In the meduim term I think Toronto needs to remove some stations. There are honestly to many stops for a 10.3 km line. I would remove Stevenson, Duncanwoods, and Driftwood. Stations would still be about 735 meters apart. That would be a 8- 10 minute walk between station, still reasonably for local trips.

In long term Finch West LRT should be integrated with a future Bolton GO train line and expanded south towards the new Woodbine GO station.

Long term the LRT can be a great and efficient train for local community and used as a feeder line for regional rail. Individuals that need to get to downtown or another part of the city fast can take the LRT to higher order transit more efficiently.

 

[ssiguy2]

Although incompetence runs deep at the TTC, there is no way around the fact that ultimately, this is the City's responsibility.

In it's simplest form, TTC is just an organization that runs vehicles and nothing more. As long as those vehicles run on roadways they must follow the rules dictated to them by the City Transportation Dept. They can't make up the rules as they go along. It is the City that determines their budget and hence where they provide service and how frequently. It is the City that sets the rules of the road the buses/streetcars/LRT must follow.

The TTC drivers are overwhelmingly helpful, hard working, and want to serve the public in the best way. They are probably more frustrated then even the passengers about the speed of the system. When they get caught in traffic or sit at lights because one person wants to make a left,, it puts them behind schedule and infuriates the passengers and it is the drivers who are the first to hear about it. They want to provide a quality service and take pride in their work for the public but it is the City that inhibits them. I'm sure the TTC Board gets a lot of flack from the workers but even if the TTC wants all those suggested measures put into place, it doesn't matter if the City says no.

Personally, I bet the TTC, and especially the workers, are happy that Finch has turned into such a fiasco. It has finally forced the hand of the City to enter the 21st century and give the streetcars/LRT the complete priority they deserve. Before it may have been too difficult with some crying the old "war on cars" theme not helped by the fact that Chow is a gutless wonder. Now the heat is on and, very importantly, from QP to get these vehicles moving and the rank & file TTC workers are going to be the first to celebrate.

 

[urbanclient]

Ok all things considered, Melbourne is honestly a pretty bad example since at the end of the day, Metro Tunnel and Skyrail are the only projects they're really working on (everything else is deferred or in a weird limbo zone), and honestly while it is a big and important project its value proposition has been pretty terrible and is more of a capacity project than anything. As it stands right now Toronto/GTHA has a much more flashy and transformative suite of projects in the works than Melbourne.

That's not to say we're doing everything right, far from it, but a few fumbles and bad projects here and there doesn't really diminish what we're accomplishing overall. There's no reason to declare that the sky is falling and that we're doomed because Finch West was underwhelming, and we kicked DB out (which based off reports I keep getting from many sources really seems to have been overall a good decision).

You're forgetting the Surburban Rail Loop* which is supposed to give them 41 km of automated PSD regional metro by 2035 (basically their 407 electrified rail), around the same time we'll get Line 5 west, Line 2 extension, Ontario line, and maybe Line 1 extension, in descending order of likeliness. Their 41 km SRL is at least similar in length to our 40.6 km rapid transit expansion. It's also worthwhile to consider that Melbourne has higher rail ridership per capita than Toronto. It gets 180 million per year on its RER style "Metro Trains", which put GO rail transit to shame with 400 km of routes, and another 160 million on its trams. All for a city that is only 5.4 million over ~10,000 sqkm versus GTHA at 8.3 million over 8,200 sqkm. Toronto is far behind Melbourne in terms of rail transit today. Even if Melbourne's rail systems are quite unique, they are nonetheless very impressive.

Sydney is slightly larger at 5.56 million, and it also has had much better rail transit than Toronto historically. Sydney Trains has 6 true RER routes with 3 to 15 minute frequencies for a 360 km network; plus 3 less frequent routes for 9 lines, 270 million annual ridership. As for expansion, Sydney is slated to get 113 km of fully automated, platform screen door metro by 2032-2033, likely earlier than when we're getting the Ontario Line and certainly before the Line 1 extension. It currently has 52 out of 113 km built. In the same length of time it might take us to get 100 km of the existing Lakeshore lines electrified, Sydney is getting 113 km of automated heavy metro to serve partially as regional rail. That is not to mention 700+ km of intercity rail in Sydney which has GO transit-like frequencies.

We are easily 30-40 years behind Australia's two biggest cities, even though we were historically more wealthy, as well as more populous and more densely populated. Now we're just more populous and more dense. Geee I wonder if having better transit leads to better socioeconomic outcomes? Oh and Australia is about as car-brained as it gets; even more car-brained than Canada. It's just that the Aussies obviously figured out that loving cars and loving transit aren't mutually exclusive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_motor_vehicles_per_capita
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suburban_Rail_Loop

*The halt for SRL is only "if [Jess Wilson] becomes Premier at the 2026 election." "As of September 2025, the construction of six SRL East stations is still underway, with tunnel boring machines to arrive and start digging in early 2026." Federal support for SRL from governing Labor appears to be strong. Even subtracting 41 km of future metro, Melbourne is still in a better position today than Toronto in terms of rail transit. Sydney's future expansion appears more concrete and just blows Toronto out of the water from an already winning position.

 

[wheelloader]

While a lot of thread focus on speed, some of my observations relates to the fare box, I drive along line 6 from Finch West to Albion every day and usually 3-4 times I would see riders walking in to the platform area while I was waiting for the green light. Sadly more than half of the time, I saw people simply walking by the presto stall without tapping. I am not sure if TTC will get their expected revenue from line 6 operation.

 

[smallspy]

AFAIK the TTC argued that speeding up trains would increase operating costs. Which is actually stupid. Operating costs would go down if fewer, faster trains covered the route, necessitating fewer operators.

It was not the TTC who argued that. It is exactly what they were told by the consortium.

Dan

 

[SaugeenJunction]

It was not the TTC who argued that. It is exactly what they were told by the consortium.

Dan

The consortium isn't wrong about costs. In a P3 agreement everything is baked-in in terms of cost assumptions. For example, faster service means harder braking, meaning more frequent brake pad replacement, which costs more. Speeding up Line 6 is possible, but certain parts of the contract will need to be looked at and adjusted based on these cost assumptions.

 

[urbanclient]

"CEO Mandeep Lali replied that the schedule determines the speed. This is utterly wrong as Finch demonstrates. The speed is determined by how quickly cars can move along the line, and based on experience to date, it is considerably slower than the generous scheduled time. Lali went on to say that TTC is working with York University on ways to improve transit operations. This is a red herring as the debate revealed.

[...]

Myers observed that the Board should not have found out on opening day that the service would be slow. That says something about the “transparency” of the testing phase. Slow operation was known to those involved, observed by passersby and raised as an issue in online fora. Why did the Board not know? Who else in the City and Provincial governments were in the dark?

This is a key question for Finch and all other transit projects. Clarity and honesty should be demanded from both TTC and Metrolinx."

TTC Board Debates Finch L(R)T

At the TTC Board meeting on December 10, 2025, there was an extensive discussion on the poor showing of Line 6 Finch since it opened a few days ago. Predictably, this was a mix of “give us ti…

stevemunro.ca

 

[Bojaxs]

While a lot of thread focus on speed, some of my observations relates to the fare box, I drive along line 6 from Finch West to Albion every day and usually 3-4 times I would see riders walking in to the platform area while I was waiting for the green light. Sadly more than half of the time, I saw people simply walking by the presto stall without tapping. I am not sure if TTC will get their expected revenue from line 6 operation.

I noticed this as well while riding the Line from Humber College to Finch West. People just completely ignoring the Presto Machines.

The consortium isn't wrong about costs. In a P3 agreement everything is baked-in in terms of cost assumptions. For example, faster service means harder braking, meaning more frequent brake pad replacement, which costs more. Speeding up Line 6 is possible, but certain parts of the contract will need to be looked at and adjusted based on these cost assumptions.

So basically we should expect the same slow speeds on Line 5. Including in the underground portion. All in an effort to keep costs low.

In order to speed up the trains we have engage in contract negotiations. So ridiculous!

 

[innsertnamehere]

While a lot of thread focus on speed, some of my observations relates to the fare box, I drive along line 6 from Finch West to Albion every day and usually 3-4 times I would see riders walking in to the platform area while I was waiting for the green light. Sadly more than half of the time, I saw people simply walking by the presto stall without tapping. I am not sure if TTC will get their expected revenue from line 6 operation.

They just need a run of fare enforcement. Riders are shifting from fare-enforced buses to proof-of-payment, and need some enforcement to create consistent habits.

Ultimately, like the streetcars, having honour payments creates a high incentive to cheat that many will continue to do so for. If you have strong fare enforcement though you can bring those rates down. Few cheat fares on GO because Metrolinx has long had strong levels of enforcement.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Because the politicians and planners who attend the ribbon cutting ceremonies for these projects hold the very people, who will rely on these projects, in contempt. They just want your vote. Both left & right.

The fact that no effort was made to replicate "best practices" from other LRT systems around the world shows that this transit project was never about giving the residents of NW Toronto rapid transit. It was about creating jobs and giving millions to insiders who may or may not have started up a construction company around the same time these transit lines got announced. Corruption & political favours.

The Union for the TTC operators must be happy that they now have more union jobs. Shuttle buses continue to run throughout the day parallel with the LRTs. Don't be surprised as we approach the date to wind down the day time shuttle buses on Finch, the Union steps in and says we should maintain them.

Metrolinx lied through their teeth to the people of NW Toronto. promising "this" and promising "that". Meanwhile, behind closed doors they knew the Line wouldn't live up to the hype and did everything they could to keep people quiet. Because they operate as a secret society.

All in all, the "experts" and big wigs will get around to fixing the line.....eventually. In the mean time, deal with it!

As you guys can tell, I'm quite cynical at this point. Even though I've slagged on both Line 6 & 5 for years on this forum, I had hoped to be proven wrong. Unfortunately Line 6 ended up being everything I expected it to be.

EDIT: Look what Melbourne spent the last 10 years building while we spent that same time building a glorified streetcar that runs under the city and stops at traffic lights (Line 5).

Look at how generous the public space of the Melbourne system is - even our best subway infrastructure compares poorly against it (to say nothing of the quality of the design and finishes). Australia is an advanced economy - you have to wonder where did all our project budget went to.

AoD

 

[urbanclient]

It was not the TTC who argued that. It is exactly what they were told by the consortium.

Dan

The consortium isn't wrong about costs. In a P3 agreement everything is baked-in in terms of cost assumptions. For example, faster service means harder braking, meaning more frequent brake pad replacement, which costs more. Speeding up Line 6 is possible, but certain parts of the contract will need to be looked at and adjusted based on these cost assumptions.

I'm not sure either of you are correct about either of those statements, even based off my memory after listening to the TTC Board meeting Dec 10:

"Saxe claimed that improving service will add to costs, the implication being that better service requires more cars. However, the problem today is that the cars take much more time than Metrolinx claims to make a trip, and therefore the headway between cars is much wider than it would be on a shorter travel time. Service could be improved with the existing scheduled cars (15 out of a fleet of 18) simply by operating them faster." (https://stevemunro.ca/2025/12/10/ttc-board-debates-finch-lrt/)

At the end of the day, is it important who originated the argument that faster service would increase operating costs? Anybody with half a brain knows that net operating costs would be lowered if headways remain the same, but trip times are decreased.

 

[Northern Light]

Hushhh, we're not allowed to compare Toronto's pathetic transit buildout since 2002 to roughly equal sized cities—much less smaller, less dense cities, in similar sociopolitical environments like Sydney and Melbourne! The ghost of "mostest ambitious" will come haunt us again, just you see. GO Expansion [262 km descoped down to 100 km completed by 2040] is one of the most ambitious regional rail projects in the worldddddd Oh my gawd did you hear that?

After being thoroughly talked down to last time... I could never. I only compare Toronto to more populous, denser cities now...

Comparisons most certainly are allowed, even encouraged as a good way of baselining local performance.

However, endless comparisons that don't add further value or insight and take us off topic because there really isn't a clear link back to the project at hand don't have as much value.

We have dedicated threads for transit cost, general TTC and GO service, and for transit in Montreal, Ottawa and elsewhere.

Somewhere else can be build subways, at less per km than we build LRTs....got it. No one is disagreeing, so lets not have posts that are arguing with an echo.