Finch West Line 6 LRT

[Bojaxs]

Look at how generous the public space of the Melbourne system is - even our best subway infrastructure compares poorly against it (to say nothing of the quality of the design and finishes). Australia is an advanced economy - you have to wonder where did all our project budget went to.

AoD

Apparently people have started complaining that the tunnel or pathway connecting line 1 to Line 6 at Finch West smells awful. Some folks have suggested that Metrolinx cheaped out on the plumbing in the nearby bathrooms at the Line 6 Finch West station.

It's incredible how these projects have such high price tags, and yet the stations feel so cheap.

 

[Northern Light]

"CEO Mandeep Lali replied that the schedule determines the speed. This is utterly wrong as Finch demonstrates. The speed is determined by how quickly cars can move along the line, and based on experience to date, it is considerably slower than the generous scheduled time. Lali went on to say that TTC is working with York University on ways to improve transit operations. This is a red herring as the debate revealed.

For clarity here. Both statements are actually correct.

The schedule is timed at each stop, otherwise you couldn't get a schedule for when the next tram will arrive. The schedule isn't just advisory, its limiting. TTC operators are not permitted to leave a timed stop early.

So in that sense, if you set a schedule that sees a vehicle arriving at one end of the line 50 minutes after departing the opposing terminal, then yes, it does determine the speed-as-operated.

However, it does not determine the maximum speed possible and as the schedule is, within the laws of physics, operator availability and budget a choice by the operating agency (and/or its partners), the schedule need not be set for such lethargic operation. Clearly, it should not be.

The answer given by Lali is technically correct, but utterly misleading. He knew that too.

 

[Milaisacat]

Its a significant amount that it could be used as a self-reference. When trying to convince the public or management of an idea, its a lot easier to say "check out this thing we have already built and look how its not a loud clanky mess like Chicago", vs "Vancouver's elevated guideways are fine" to a room of people who have likely never been in Vancouver. The moment you have one remotely substantial segment, it will make it a lot easier to push for more of that.

This is very accurate. For people who have never lived around or regularly used a system that makes extensive use of elevated rights of way, the very notion of such a thing is typically dismissed out of hand. For those who have, such opposition is practically incomprehensible. It would be as strange to folks who are used to subways as having others recoil at the idea of being forced underground and spending their commute waiting in cold dank stations and crawling through dark tunnels. Yuck. I'll take sunshine and fresh air, thank you. That would be a bizarre take, right?

For what it's worth, in Richmond, the SkyTrain Canada Line right of way on Number 3 Road demonstrates a great example of how elevated transit can integrate well into the public realm while providing frequent, automated, medium-capacity service along a major suburban arterial street. Station spacing in Richmond ranges from as little as 650 metres to about 900 metres and the line averages 32 kph overall, so between 50% faster and double the average speed of Line 6, depending on who you believe. The SkyTrain Expo and Millennium Lines average 40 kph, incidentally.

The comparison to Line 6 is relevant, too, because were the Bombardier-led team to have won the Canada Line RFP, it would have used Bombardier (now Alsom) low-floor LRT vehicles in a median-running line along this very corridor, not dissimilar at all to the current crop of Ontario LRT projects.

Bombardier proposed a mixed-mode solution, with SkyTrain running from downtown to the airport and LRT running further south in Richmond. The SNC Lavalin-led team proposed a common vehicle and complete grade separation for the entire line, which was a key differentiator in its plan. The entire 19-kilometre, 16-original station Canada Line, including its operations and maintenance centre, was built with a budget of $2.1 billion (2004 dollars) or $3.3 billion today with inflation, and it was completed in five years from project award to commencement of revenue service.

Prior to any of this, too, Richmond had a central median-running BRT-ish line (the 98 B-Line) on Number 3 Road. This line between Richmond, the airport, and downtown Vancouver carried 20,000 daily passengers before its replacement by the Canada Line, which now carries about 120,000 people per day. In Richmond, its busway had transit signal priority, including advancing before left-turns. Here's what that system looked like:

Here's how this exact location looks today (the first Streetview is actually just looking north from this same intersection):

For clarity, when they built the Canada Line, the northbound travel lanes were moved into the footprint of the median busway while the guideway and expanded sidewalks were built curbside in the former footprint of northbound travel lanes. This reduces the actual width of the road and has the benefit of reducing crossing time for pedestrians and increasing safety. The intersection clearance time for vehicles is also reduced, allowing for a shorter overall traffic light cycle time.

 

[urbanclient]

It was not the TTC who argued that. It is exactly what they were told by the consortium.

Dan

Splitting hairs as to who is to blame more for this and that isn't productive, since all parties seem to be pointing the finger at anyone but themselves. In reality each party involved probably carries some of the blame. City council, city departments, TTC and its board, Metrolinx. And if the stupid idea(s) originated from one party, it's the other party(s) duty to keep those stupid ideas in check, not to complacently yes-man rubber stamp decisions. Even if they don't have the power to countermand decisions, they at least have a duty to voice discontent and dissent to stupid ideas. Death by committee isn't just about wasting time flapping gums, it's about metaphorical committees, organizations that are supposed to work together, but not critically evaluating each other's plans and intentions.

And so the blame game has begun. Expect statements in the spirit of "not my/our fault" in the coming days from the Premier, the Mayor, TTC, Metrolinx, Mosaic, city departments and other associated actors.

And the sad things is --- they are not wrong. These projects are set up so that the buck doesn't stop anywhere. Nobody is responsible. Whatever problems come up are always someone else's fault.

As for my opinion? Prior to opening it was more Metrolinx's fault for not implementing active signal priority by just going with what appears to be what the City and TTC wanted; and this decision was made years ago. Regardless of whose dumb idea it was, Metrolinx could have overrode those dumb ideas. [1]

Secondly, I concur with others who have said that as of TODAY, it is more the TTC and City's responsibility to implement active signal priority. The TTC is feckless and pretends to be powerless and subservient to the iron boot of every other stakeholder, except the majority of its own customers. "TTC has seemingly spent more time trying to blame the consortium or whatever than actually doing anything to speed up 6 by interpreting their contracts in the strictest way possible (Faster speeds -> we broke the contract (??) -> we have to literally consult everyone before we can do anything) meanwhile the province and MX are telling the TTC that they have the power to just go faster."

The problem here is:
- There was no communication by basically anyone involved, and even now a lot of it seems to come down to the blame-game. TTC has seemingly spent more time trying to blame the consortium or whatever than actually doing anything to speed up 6 by interpreting their contracts in the strictest way possible (Faster speeds -> we broke the contract (??) -> we have to literally consult everyone before we can do anything) meanwhile the province and MX are telling the TTC that they have the power to just go faster.
- Tram vehicle operation is not new to the TTC. We have the entire streetcar network of Toronto to show that the TTC has basically gone "We've tried making things slower and we're all out of ideas on how to make things faster". The TTC has shown literally zero interest in even making the routes with dedicated ROWs slightly faster, and has repeatedly clogged up every opportunity and attempt at doing so ("We have to consult literally everyone to remove a stop and if ONE person objects we gotta cancel!")
- These motions from the city should be entirely unnecessary. The TTC should be just getting it done, or the TTC should be demanding the city let them implement faster protocols- not the other way around.

The TTC on improving streetcar service unilaterally: We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!

Myers: when the decision is made to remove a stop there's nothing actually stopping the TTC from removing it right?

TTC staff: yes but we typically consult with the local councillor and their staff. The outcome in almost all cases is do not remove our stop

1. https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-254795.pdf

 

[Northern Light]

Apparently people have started complaining that the tunnel or pathway connecting line 1 to Line 6 at Finch West smells awful. Some folks have suggested that Metrolinx cheaped out on the plumbing in the nearby bathrooms at the Line 6 Finch West station.

It's incredible how these projects have such high price tags, and yet the stations feel so cheap.

Metrolinx and TTC both tend to be cheap on 'finishes' and amenities. The former are an incredibly small part of the budget on a large project, the difference between basic and above-average is under 1% of total costs.

Just to put some colour on that.......... Good quality porcelain tile (commercial grade) could run you up to $30 'ish per ft2. A large station might have 20,000ft2 of wall area. That's $600,000, max install cost, about the same, so 1.2M.

Obviously station sizes vary, there are uniquely complex elements in some, and you could pay for granite instead.............but on a project that has a budget in the billions, its peanuts to put in nice walls, better lights, and ceiling finishes.

A major supermarket reno isn't a bad comparison, but note, that includes cooking facilities and oodles of fridges and freezers, a 50,000ft2 store will run you about 10-12M for a deluxe gut job. Of which lights, ceilings, flooring are a comparatively small cost.

On Amenities:

Mx continues to have an aversion to escalators that it must get over, they aren't just a 'nice to have' they are essential to platform capacity by improving passenger movement speed and volume.

Both organizations aren't keen on washrooms.

Neither handles retail well.

 

[Mihairokov]

Apparently people have started complaining that the tunnel or pathway connecting line 1 to Line 6 at Finch West smells awful. Some folks have suggested that Metrolinx cheaped out on the plumbing in the nearby bathrooms at the Line 6 Finch West station.

It's incredible how these projects have such high price tags, and yet the stations feel so cheap.

We call this the Ottawa-ification of urban transit.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Apparently people have started complaining that the tunnel or pathway connecting line 1 to Line 6 at Finch West smells awful. Some folks have suggested that Metrolinx cheaped out on the plumbing in the nearby bathrooms at the Line 6 Finch West station.

err,... what did you expect from,... Transit-Shitty

 

[duty free]

A lot of people really oversell how much of this project is elevated. It’s a small section, conveniently in Thorncliffe Park and Flemingdon Park. I think many underestimate how much push back elevated will receive. I’m not saying it’s right. I would just like to warn people not to get their hopes up.

Why are you ignoring the large section of the line that runs above ground through Riverdale and Leslieville? Was the Save Jimmie Simpson Park group just a figment of my imagination?

I don't underestimate pushback, there's always ignorant self motivated people but what happened, were they successful in making sure the Ontario Line is buried through their neighbourhood? Let me know when you have a chance.

 

[duty free]

This is very accurate. For people who have never lived around or regularly used a system that makes extensive use of elevated rights of way, the very notion of such a thing is typically dismissed out of hand. For those who have, such opposition is practically incomprehensible. It would be as strange to folks who are used to subways as having others recoil at the idea of being forced underground and spending their commute waiting in cold dank stations and crawling through dark tunnels. Yuck. I'll take sunshine and fresh air, thank you. That would be a bizarre take, right?

For what it's worth, in Richmond, the SkyTrain Canada Line right of way on Number 3 Road demonstrates a great example of how elevated transit can integrate well into the public realm while providing frequent, automated, medium-capacity service along a major suburban arterial street. Station spacing in Richmond ranges from as little as 650 metres to about 900 metres and the line averages 32 kph overall, so between 50% and double the average speed of Line 6, depending on who you believe. The SkyTrain Expo and Millennium Lines average 40 kph, incidentally.

View attachment 702303

The comparison to Line 6 is relevant, too, because were the Bombardier-led team to have won the Canada Line RFP, it would have used LRT vehicles in a median-running line along this very corridor, not dissimilar at all to the current crop of Ontario LRT projects.

Bombardier proposed a mixed-mode solution, with SkyTrain running from downtown to the airport and LRT running further south in Richmond. The SNC Lavalin-led team proposed a common vehicle and complete grade separation for the entire line, which was a key differentiator in its plan. The entire 19-kilometre, 16-original station Canada Line, including its operations and maintenance centre, was built with a budget of $2.1 billion (2004 dollars) or $3.3 billion today with inflation, and it was completed in five years from project award to commencement of revenue service.

Prior to any of this, too, Richmond had a central median-running BRT-ish line (the 98 B-Line) on Number 3 Road. This line between Richmond, the airport, and downtown Vancouver carried 20,000 daily passengers before its replacement by the SkyTrain Canada Line, which now carries about 120,000 people per day. In Richmond, its busway had transit signal priority, including advancing before left-turns. Here's what that looked like:

View attachment 702305

Here's how this exact location looks today (the first Streetview is actually just looking north from this same intersection):

View attachment 702306

For clarity, when they built the Canada Line, the northbound travel lanes were moved into the footprint of the median busway while the guideway and expanded sidewalks were built curbside in the former footprint of northbound travel lanes. This reduces the actual width of the road and has the benefit of reducing crossing time for pedestrians and increasing safety. The intersection clearance time for vehicles is also reduced, allowing for a shorter overall traffic light cycle time.

You win at life.

Every street north of Eglinton is wide enough to do just this. This could've been / can still be Finch, Eglinton or pretty much any street in North York, Etobicoke and Scarborough for a similar price tag and much better service. Hopefully they learn what we already know.

 

[APTA-2048]

Why are you ignoring the large section of the line that runs above ground through Riverdale and Leslieville? Was the Save Jimmie Simpson Park group just a figment of my imagination?

I don't underestimate pushback, there's always ignorant self motivated people but what happened, were they successful in making sure the Ontario Line is buried through their neighbourhood? Let me know when you have a chance.

I personally don’t really see it as the same. It’s not really elevated like what people picture (which for a lot of Torontonians is the Gardiner and RT, unfortunately). It’s in a rail corridor that already existed and was already busy.

 

[Ratazana]

In the short term to improve service, the Finch West LRT should be given priority when approaching intersections, operated at a higher speed, and reduced dwelling times at stations.

In the meduim term I think Toronto needs to remove some stations. There are honestly to many stops for a 10.3 km line. I would remove Stevenson, Duncanwoods, and Driftwood. Stations would still be about 735 meters apart. That would be a 8- 10 minute walk between station, still reasonably for local trips.

In long term Finch West LRT should be integrated with a future Bolton GO train line and expanded south towards the new Woodbine GO station.

Long term the LRT can be a great and efficient train for local community and used as a feeder line for regional rail. Individuals that need to get to downtown or another part of the city fast can take the LRT to higher order transit more efficiently.

Albion mall is currently served by 3 stations. Not even Eaton Centre gets that level of respect…. Removing Stevenson is a no-brainer.

 

[duty free]

I personally don’t really see it as the same. It’s not really elevated like what people picture (which for a lot of Torontonians is the Gardiner and RT, unfortunately). It’s in a rail corridor that already existed and was already busy.

Anytime someone tries to compare the Gardiner to elevated rail show them this.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

@kevinrupasinghe.bsky.social

I wanted to compare what I saw on Seattle's Line 1 LRT with Toronto's Finch LRT. In Seattle, you can see left turning cars waiting while fast-moving transit gets priority. Help TTCriders make it happen in Toronto: www.ttcriders.ca/greenlight 📸: @wk1998.bsky.social / @kevinrupasinghe.bsky.social

bsky.app

 

[duffo]

@kevinrupasinghe.bsky.social

I wanted to compare what I saw on Seattle's Line 1 LRT with Toronto's Finch LRT. In Seattle, you can see left turning cars waiting while fast-moving transit gets priority. Help TTCriders make it happen in Toronto: www.ttcriders.ca/greenlight 📸: @wk1998.bsky.social / @kevinrupasinghe.bsky.social

bsky.app

Its not clear in the Seattle video is the LRT actually gets advance priority over the left-turn phase, or if the video was just taken after the advance left-turn phase is over and the cars waiting to turn left arrived after the light turned green for through movements? I feel like we will see lots and lots of this (possible) unsubstantiated misinfo by those who don't actually understand how TSP works over the coming weeks and months....

 

[lastcommodore]

Its not clear in the Seattle video is the LRT actually gets advance priority over the left-turn phase, or if the video was just taken after the advance left-turn phase is over and the cars waiting to turn left arrived after the light turned green for through movements? I feel like we will see lots and lots of this (possible) unsubstantiated misinfo by those who don't actually understand how TSP works over the coming weeks and months....

More importantly: Does it matter?
What actually matters is the tram gets a green light. If there is time for a dedicated left before the tram arrives, it makes no difference to tram speed.
Likewise I have heard that iON actually dosent have much TSP, the signals are just really well timed. Again: Does it matter if its TSP or timing? The end result is the same- tram gets a green.