Finch West Line 6 LRT

[kEiThZ]

I wouldn't bridge the BRT over Hwy 400, a cut-n-cover crossing below would suffice. I think the big picture for now should be to eliminate the Finch West LRT line and instead have BRT routed through the F.H.C. all the way from Morningside or the Zoo via Beare subdivison to Weston Rd or to Hwy 27 Stn on the Eglinton Line if we consider an extensive amount of bridging over the Humber river valley, continued southwesterly on an elevated guideway. We can worry about interregional trips later. Like I was suggesting in the other thread, a Highway 27 BRT route could target nodal areas all over northern Etobicoke, perhaps better than a LRT corridor affixed to Finch would allow.

It sucks for real that TTC groupthink won't allow for anything other than LRT technology to be assessed.

Following on these suggestions, I wonder if it might be a better idea for SOS to propose a North Toronto Crosstown on the Finch Hydro Corridor and leave just local service along Finch? Two separate services essentially. One's a regional service. And one's a local service.

 

[EnviroTO]

The Sheppard comparison are pointless. If the Sheppard line was never built, much of its ridership would not exist today or would be scattered elsewhere. More people would take other routes or drive, fewer condos would have been built, fewer transit-using people would be moving to the area, etc.

So we need a Finch West subway built to be able to compare? I would suspect that the creation of a Finch West subway would also consolidate ridership, spur development, and everything else that has happened on Sheppard West. What is the quantitative and qualitative measures you would use to determine whether or not a route warrants local bus, BRT, LRT, or subway? If a route had higher ridership than the one which got a subway and supposedly requires it then how can it that route not warrant LRT which only requires a quarter of the ridership for equal loading and frequency?

 

[Second_in_pie]

So we need a Finch West subway built to be able to compare? I would suspect that the creation of a Finch West subway would also consolidate ridership, spur development, and everything else that has happened on Sheppard West. What is the quantitative and qualitative measures you would use to determine whether or not a route warrants local bus, BRT, LRT, or subway? If a route had higher ridership than the one which got a subway and supposedly requires it then how can it that route not warrant LRT which only requires a quarter of the ridership for equal loading and frequency?

Technically, yes. Building a subway on finch would mean more transit-friendly development, more people using transit and so on. But Finch just isn't as good as Sheppard. Sheppard is a dense corridor anchored by two urban growth centres, NYCC and STC. Both these areas are slated for huge downtown-esque development, with condos, offices, and shops. It also hits the Consumer's employment area, and putting the subway there would provide rapid transit from both the east and west. On top of that, it hits Agincourt which is an area that's continuing to grow in high density development.

Finch really doesn't have these areas that sheppard does. Okay, it has Humber College. But that really doesn't compare to STC; STC will house thousands of jobs and tens of thousands of people, while Humber College has a couple thousand students. Okay, Finch might have some density nodes, but that really doesn't compare to Agincourt in size. Finch also has little to no employment areas outside NYCC, and most of the growth in NYCC is focused around Sheppard.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

So we need a Finch West subway built to be able to compare? I would suspect that the creation of a Finch West subway would also consolidate ridership, spur development, and everything else that has happened on Sheppard West. What is the quantitative and qualitative measures you would use to determine whether or not a route warrants local bus, BRT, LRT, or subway? If a route had higher ridership than the one which got a subway and supposedly requires it then how can it that route not warrant LRT which only requires a quarter of the ridership for equal loading and frequency?

People were comparing buses and LRT and you dragged subways into the comparisons. If you think Finch should get a subway line, say so. If it did, yes, ridership would increase substantially more than it would with an LRT line or a BRT line or existing bus service or improved bus service or a monorail or a caravan of camels. If Sheppard was extended west of Downsview, it'd even make the most sense to continue the line along Finch.

If an area is declining in population and not slated to grow much or be the site of massive redevelopments, there's no point worrying about capacity or spending billions of dollars. If a bus route is floundering in mixed traffic and buses can't be made to run any faster, some kind of ROW is needed. Common sense applies.

I didn't say LRT wasn't warranted. I did say that having LRTs run twice as long but half as often provides a worse service for Finch.

 

[Rainforest]

...

I didn't say LRT wasn't warranted. I did say that having LRTs run twice as long but half as often provides a worse service for Finch.

If the mixed-traffic buses bunch up and form packs of 3 or 4, the real average waiting time will be longer than for LRT route, even if theoretical headways are two times shorter for buses.

And bus packs are quite common on Finch W during peak hours.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If the mixed-traffic buses bunch up and form packs of 3 or 4, the real average waiting time will be longer than for LRT route, even if theoretical headways are two times shorter for buses.

And bus packs are quite common on Finch W during peak hours.

I meant worse than running shorter LRTs more often, not worse than existing bus service.

I know the current bus service doesn't work well on Finch and I think they should build the LRT (past Humber to Woodbine and Pearson). I was just pointing out that improved bus service somewhere in the BRT spectrum would be perfectly capable of serving Finch as well as the LRT, particularly if the hydro corridor is used. There's pros and cons, as usual.

 

[EnviroTO]

I didn't say LRT wasn't warranted. I did say that having LRTs run twice as long but half as often provides a worse service for Finch.

Yes but it is all relative. BRT running every 2 seconds is more frequent than an LRT running every 4 minutes but I think most people would still prefer the LRT. The business case analysis lays out the case that BRT will not be able to handle the growth and transit needs of the area. That business case was done when it was well known the Spadina subway was being extended considering the extension has been funded for years.

 

[EnviroTO]

Anyone know what happened to the fall public information centre. PIC#2 was supposed to be about now. All the transit projects in the GTA other than the Spadina extension have been very quiet lately.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yes but it is all relative. BRT running every 2 seconds is more frequent than an LRT running every 4 minutes but I think most people would still prefer the LRT. The business case analysis lays out the case that BRT will not be able to handle the growth and transit needs of the area. That business case was done when it was well known the Spadina subway was being extended considering the extension has been funded for years.

Why would a BCA for an LRT line suggest building a BRT line instead?

People would also prefer a subway, but they're not going to get one on Finch...it's all relative.

 

[EnviroTO]

In the first PIC session they showed where employment growth and residential growth is expected and have ridership projections. Those projections showed that a BRT articulated bus would need to run every 100 seconds to meet future demand. Considering that in the past decade ridership on the route climbed more than 5,000 per day with no improvements it seems obvious that an improved service such as BRT or LRT which is seen as faster and more reliable the ridership would grow even faster, especially when alternate routes are not getting BRT or LRT. It wouldn't grow as fast as a subway but it would grow fast enough that BRT might not be a great solution.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

In the first PIC session they showed where employment growth and residential growth is expected and have ridership projections. Those projections showed that a BRT articulated bus would need to run every 100 seconds to meet future demand. Considering that in the past decade ridership on the route climbed more than 5,000 per day with no improvements it seems obvious that an improved service such as BRT or LRT which is seen as faster and more reliable the ridership would grow even faster, especially when alternate routes are not getting BRT or LRT. It wouldn't grow as fast as a subway but it would grow fast enough that BRT might not be a great solution.

They also showed where employment and residential declines are expected. 5000 per day is one thing, but how much did the peak loads rise by? 5000 doesn't mean anything if 2500 of them got on at Bathurst and off at Dufferin and a different 2500 got on at Islington and off at Kipling and if this 5000 was evenly spread out in off-peak hours - the effective capacity of one bus could be 1000 per hour if it fills up and empties over and over along a route. We don't know how they arrived at their 2300-2800 projection...the problem is we don't even know precisely what the current peak loads are at Yonge and Keele, though we can make guesstimates.

Let's guess that it's 1500 per hour at Yonge and 1000 per hour at Keele. After the Spadina extension, it'll be less than 1500 at Yonge, but still 1000 at Keele. Ridership will go up, though. Let's say it rises 50% because of some area growth, the attractiveness of the longer subway, an enrollment jump at Humber, a few switching from N/S routes, whatever. Now, the new peak loads on Finch are 1500 per hour at Keele. Unchanged, even after significant ridership growth. But ridership is supposedly going to almost double again...we've already increased transit's modal share, factored in growth, and so on. Another 1000 riders per hour aren't going to materialize out of thin air. But even if peak loads don't end up changing at all, improving transit on Finch is still very desirable.

It'd be wonderful if Finch West could generate another 10,000 riders per hour, but we can't plan, eliminate legitimate options, and spend a billion dollars on an optimistic hunch that tens of thousands of additional daily riders will show up.

 

[EnviroTO]

It'd be wonderful if Finch West could generate another 10,000 riders per hour, but we can't plan, eliminate legitimate options, and spend a billion dollars on an optimistic hunch that tens of thousands of additional daily riders will show up.

That is exactly how Sheppard got approved... based on hypothetical future growth. It is the same hypothetical growth of Scarborough Centre which would justify extensions. Currently only the SRT replacement and upgrade to subway could be supported by current capacity issues.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

That is exactly how Sheppard got approved... based on hypothetical future growth. It is the same hypothetical growth of Scarborough Centre which would justify extensions. Currently only the SRT replacement and upgrade to subway could be supported by current capacity issues.

I'm so very surprised that you brought up Sheppard again. Sheppard should have been built longer right off the bat but it wasn't and until it is, buses are just fine - and can be improved for very little money. Sheppard can wait, but the SRT is falling apart right now.

If you think the planning process erred there, why repeat some sort of "select it first, study it later" process on Finch where there's much less growth planned and where peak ridership loads may end up smaller than current loads even after enormous ridership growth? A further near-doubling of ridership isn't hypothetical, it's sheer fantasy.

 

[Mike in TO]

Small update:

• A report to the City of Toronto's Government Management Committee for Nov 9th recommends authority be granted to the TTC to negotiate the acquisition, or if necessary initiate expropriation proceedings for a 20-acre site on the north side of Finch Avenue West between Norfinch Drive and York Gate Boulevard, owned by Elderbrook Developments Ltd.
• The site would be developed with new maintenance and storage facilities to accommodate vehicles for the Finch West LRT line.

 

[EnviroTO]

What a dumb place to put a facility which is more light-industrial than residential or commercial in use. Th better location for it is on the south side of Finch just east of the GO Barrie line. The area between Norfinch and York Gate should be zoned mixed use residential, commercial, and office. At some point this area being at the intersection of two LRT lines, near the university, and just off the 400, should be able to become more than an LRT parking and maintenance lot.