Fare evasion on the TTC...

[johntauren]

...But Viva buses don't even have readers on buses. They can't seriously expect you to get off the bus to tap again.


The problem has suddenly become PoP, which now appears to expire at exactly the 2 hour mark.
This doesn't particularly matter on other systems, where you pay as you board and there isn't a need for fare inspectors.
Go shouldn't have this problem, as you're tapping on and off for each leg of your journey.

But now it's a problem for TTC, and YRT (more specifically Viva).

 

[Voltz]

...But Viva buses don't even have readers on buses. They can't seriously expect you to get off the bus to tap again.

.

But now it's a problem for TTC, and YRT (more specifically Viva).

Tapping when you board a Streetcar or Viva bus should avoid issues, since since there is no way they can claim you didn't try to pay, or you were really starting a new trip, if your time runs out while on the vehicle.

 

[SubHuman]

If you tap your Prestocard to re-enter the TTC system when it is at 1 hour 55 minutes, then 10 minutes later change to a different vehicle while inside the paid-fare area of a subway station (getting onto a surface vehicle from the subway, or onto the subway from a bus or streetcar that has pulled into the station), is that okay because it is still considered to be one continuous trip where you have not exited the system? And if it's not, how would you pay again when you were already inside the subway station? Would they expect you to walk out of the station's exit gate and immediately turn around to tap and re-enter before you walk down the stairs and get onto the subway?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Whenever my two hours are up and heading home, I try to use subway stations that provide a paid area for transferring to the surface buses. For example, I will use the Keele Station instead of the Jane Station, because I would have to tap onto the the Jane bus but no tapping to get on the Weston Road bus (at the moment). Jane Street intersects with Weston Road above Eglinton Avenue West, for your information.

If I still have time remaining, I will use the Jane Station because of the availablity of the Jane Express bus is better the Weston Express bus.

Subject to change.

 

[rbt]

If you tap your Prestocard to re-enter the TTC system when it is at 1 hour 55 minutes, then 10 minutes later change to a different vehicle while inside the paid-fare area of a subway station (getting onto a surface vehicle from the subway, or onto the subway from a bus or streetcar that has pulled into the station), is that okay because it is still considered to be one continuous trip where you have not exited the system? And if it's not, how would you pay again when you were already inside the subway station? Would they expect you to walk out of the station's exit gate and immediately turn around to tap and re-enter before you walk down the stairs and get onto the subway?

The original plan was that you would tap when entering any vehicle other than the metro train; that's the reason buses have readers at the back doors. So, 10 minutes later you would tap on the bus while boarding the bus or streetcar. POP was expected to enforce that you had a validated fare (tapped) on the vehicle you are currently riding; even a metropass required a tap to be valid for that trip.

At some point we decided it was too difficult for passengers to change behaviour and got stuck without any clearly defined rules for how the fare works.


If I was transit tsar, I'd be looking really hard at implementing gates in many fare-paid connection areas (York Mills, Finch, Spadina, etc.) between modes about 10 minutes after old tokens are no longer accepted. Also, separate streams for inbound and outbound customers; gates should be one-way at nearly all stations.

I've not done a cash payment in a long time on a bus. Do drivers hand out single-trip Presto tickets now for cash customers? If so, these can be activated on the vehicle at time of purchase and will pass through these internal-station gates without issue.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm curious how stringently the courts are enforcing fare evasion tickets, given how unreliable the system is. It seems like if one were to dispute any given fare evasion ticket, judges would probably be inclined to accept any reasonable excuse people make up (reader malfunctioned, PRESTO logging data is incorrect, etc...), given how unreliable the system is. At this point I really don't know how anyone could look at the data Presto is spewing out, and conclude that they could use that to determine whether or not someone was fare evading

 

[APTA-2048]

You remember Kyle Ashley, a local bicycle activist...

He tweeted this:

View attachment 234090

The fare insecurity saga continues.

I admit it can be hard to get to a fare machine when it’s crush loaded, but

1. The guy is literally in front of the fare vending machine. It looks like he just needs to be a big boy and ask the other guy to scooch a little bit out of the way.

2. Every door has one Presto reader to tap. The double width doors have two.

 

[APTA-2048]

...But Viva buses don't even have readers on buses. They can't seriously expect you to get off the bus to tap again.

For what it’s worth, this has been their policy from day one. I remember having to get off the Viva bus and purchase another ticket when my 2 hours was up to continue on my journey in 2005.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

How is it that Brampton has zero fare enforcement, cheaper fares, and a bus only system, yet has a farebox recovery ratio of 50%, while the TTC is around 65%? Brampton also has a fairly limited fare evasion situation.

Is it a case of institutional trust? Brampton has added service hours every year for over 10 years, including major new routes, and fares have tracked inflation. Is it the deteriorating quality of service combined with faster than inflation rises in fares, plus the TTC constantly blaming riders? Do people think the TTC is screwing them, so they should screw it right back?

 

[johntauren]

You don't really need fare enforcement on a bus only system, they only way onto the bus is to pay your fare (or transfer).
There's no need for fare enforces to check a PoP because the driver isn't going to let you stay on the bus without paying or a valid transfer. It's hard to evade the fare in this scenario (not that people don't try - such as using old/expired paper transfers).


I think Viva is the only purely bus system in the GTA that has proper fare enforcers, because you pay on the platform and not on board the bus.

 

[smallspy]

How is it that Brampton has zero fare enforcement, cheaper fares, and a bus only system, yet has a farebox recovery ratio of 50%, while the TTC is around 65%? Brampton also has a fairly limited fare evasion situation.

Is it a case of institutional trust? Brampton has added service hours every year for over 10 years, including major new routes, and fares have tracked inflation. Is it the deteriorating quality of service combined with faster than inflation rises in fares, plus the TTC constantly blaming riders? Do people think the TTC is screwing them, so they should screw it right back?

Brampton has 100% fare enforcement - one must pay or display a fare everytime one enters a vehicle. (That doesn't mean that there isn't fare evasion, it does happen - but it's much harder to do.)

In contrast, Toronto has many places where one can access the system without paying - walking in off of the street at almost every single subway station through the bus lanes, POP on streetcar routes, etc. Because it is so easy, more people are willing to attempt it.

The fact of the matter is that as the volumes increase to the levels that Toronto sees, it becomes harder and harder to enforce fares to the level that Brampton does. Can you imagine what it would be like if every single person boarding every single subway train had to have their fare checked as they boarded?

Dan

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

You don't really need fare enforcement on a bus only system, they only way onto the bus is to pay your fare (or transfer).
There's no need for fare enforces to check a PoP because the driver isn't going to let you stay on the bus without paying or a valid transfer. It's hard to evade the fare in this scenario (not that people don't try - such as using old/expired paper transfers).


I think Viva is the only purely bus system in the GTA that has proper fare enforcers, because you pay on the platform and not on board the bus.

Brampton has 100% fare enforcement - one must pay or display a fare everytime one enters a vehicle. (That doesn't mean that there isn't fare evasion, it does happen - but it's much harder to do.)

In contrast, Toronto has many places where one can access the system without paying - walking in off of the street at almost every single subway station through the bus lanes, POP on streetcar routes, etc. Because it is so easy, more people are willing to attempt it.

The fact of the matter is that as the volumes increase to the levels that Toronto sees, it becomes harder and harder to enforce fares to the level that Brampton does. Can you imagine what it would be like if every single person boarding every single subway train had to have their fare checked as they boarded?

Dan

Brampton Transit Operators don't actually "enforce" fares, if someone doesn't put enough cash into the machine for example, they are supposed to say "excuse me the full fare is [price]", and if the person refuses to pay, the operator isn't supposed to challenge it. This is a safety policy. They don't issue fines, they don't stop the bus and call anyone, they just push the fare evasion button which logs it, so they can count it for ridership.

 

[smallspy]

Brampton Transit Operators don't actually "enforce" fares, if someone doesn't put enough cash into the machine for example, they are supposed to say "excuse me the full fare is [price]", and if the person refuses to pay, the operator isn't supposed to challenge it. This is a safety policy. They don't issue fines, they don't stop the bus and call anyone, they just push the fare evasion button which logs it, so they can count it for ridership.

That's not the point here.

The whole reason why retailers such as Walmart use "greeters" at the front doors of their stores is not because they will do something in the event that someone is caught shoplifting, but rather to give the impression that the customers are being watched. And it works - the cost of the greeters is more than covered by the lowering of losses to shoplifting.

(Yes, there is going to be a certain percentage that will do it no matter what, but it's a very small percentage.)

Just having someone watching is often more than enough to cause the vast majority of people to follow the rules. People are more likely to try and skirt the system if they think that they can get away with it scot-free.

Dan

 

[W. K. Lis]

That's not the point here.

The whole reason why retailers such as Walmart use "greeters" at the front doors of their stores is not because they will do something in the event that someone is caught shoplifting, but rather to give the impression that the customers are being watched. And it works - the cost of the greeters is more than covered by the lowering of losses to shoplifting.

(Yes, there is going to be a certain percentage that will do it no matter what, but it's a very small percentage.)

Just having someone watching is often more than enough to cause the vast majority of people to follow the rules. People are more likely to try and skirt the system if they think that they can get away with it scot-free.

Dan

"Do you have proof of payment, sir?"

From link.

 

[Johnny Au]

"Do you have proof of payment, sir?"

From link.

TTC fare inspectors are looking forward to doping.