Fare evasion on the TTC...

[Admiral Beez]

First of all, the 'smarter question' was exactly what I asked.

Read your post.

And where do you think money from the TDSB comes from?

What money is coming from the TDSB? I don't know what you're on about here. What funds from the TDSB are you referring to?

As for where the money for the TDSB comes from, it comes from the province, which includes a portion from property taxes plus a portion from taxpayers across the province. My point was if the TDSB is paying for school buses for out of district kids, why not move the line item for free TTC passes to the TDSB. Sure, for a portion it's the same taxpayer, but it's the more transparent approach. Every rider on the TTC should pay a fare to the TTC, and IMO the same fare. That would eliminate fraudulent use of discounted or free Prestos.

 

[Tuscani01]

Read your post.
What money is coming from the TDSB? I don't know what you're on about here. What funds from the TDSB are you referring to?

As for where the money for the TDSB comes from, it comes from the province, which includes a portion from property taxes plus a portion from taxpayers across the province. My point was if the TDSB is paying for school buses for out of district kids, why not move the line item for free TTC passes to the TDSB. Sure, for a portion it's the same taxpayer, but it's the more transparent approach. Every rider on the TTC should pay a fare to the TTC, and IMO the same fare. That would eliminate fraudulent use of discounted or free Prestos.

No, you read my post. It was pretty clear.

You posted:

the province or TDSB should subsidize the cost of a standard adult Presto card, no the property owners of Toronto.

I said "where do you think the money from the TDSB comes from" in reference to you saying the money should come FROM them. It doesn't matter where the line item ends up - its coming from the same taxpayer. The issue being discussed has nothing to do with transparency, and moving the cost of this to the school boards does nothing to solve the problem - which is that those discounted passes are being used by people who don't qualify for them.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You hate to see it:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1228410141449621504

 

[TransitBart]

The TTC's new streetcar wraps are an embarrassment.

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Why is that? It's clearly not as obvious to me as it is to you? But I am fairly linear....

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

The TTC's new streetcar wraps are an embarrassment.

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There are no different than the ones they have with twitter quotes asking people to keep their feet off the seats. Ther is no excuse for not paying your fare and they want people to know that if anyone should be embarrassed about fare evasion its those that think it's ok to do it. Every time I see someone walk into a station via the bus roadway I feel like saying to them "thank you for rasing the fare for those of us who do pay it"

 

[Admiral Beez]

Every time I see someone walk into a station via the bus roadway I feel like saying to them "thank you for rasing the fare for those of us who do pay it"

Unless they were otherwise going to pay and thus represent lost revenue, their evasion and free ride doesn’t increase your fare.

 

[W. K. Lis]

TTC fare evasion tickets have skyrocketed in last five years. This is how the crackdown breaks down

From link.

The number of tickets isssued for fare evasion on the TTC jumped by 800 per cent in five years, a trend expected to continue as the transit agency hires more fare inspectors.

According to information from the TTC, a total of 973 fare evasion tickets were handed out in 2014 (there weren’t any issued for the first seven months of that year).

For 2015, 2,477 tickets were issued all year; in 2019, the number stood at 19,871.

These numbers will likely continue to shoot up as the TTC continues its crackdown on fare evaders.

“We have a new class of inspectors starting very soon and then the hiring for new special constables will begin,” said TTC spokesperson Stuart Green.

The TTC will soon have 111 fare inspectors checking passengers who are riding the buses, streetcars and subway trains, Green said, adding that the city has also approved the hiring of 50 additional special constables.

TTC riders started using Presto cards at some subway stations in 2012, and streetcar riders were allowed to board through the back doors beginning in 2015.

Ticketing riders who fail to provide proof of payment has drawn criticism from commuters and transit advocates, who describe it as unfair. Many also say the fines for fare evaders are disproportionate compared to the penalties for other infractions.

Lauren Mitchell, a regular TTC rider for the past 10 years, admitted she forgot to pay when she recently hopped on the Queen streetcar. The ticket she received, and the subsequent process to either pay or fight it, has left her both astounded and frustrated.

“I was caught in a moment of weakness,” she said, noting the fare inspector had waited for a couple of stops to see if she would tap her Presto card.

“I was in the wrong but the punishment does not fit the crime.”

Mitchell received a $235 ticket, which she was told is the lowest fine for fare evasion.

“That’s an unfair amount of money for a $3.25 infraction,” she said, adding it’s embarrassing to be fined in front of all the riders.

She said she was once fined $135 and lost two demerit points off her driving licence after she was caught driving 25 km over the speed limit — something she described as more dangerous than a transit fare evasion.

It would take driving 38 km over the speed limit for a driver to get fined the same amount as a person who didn’t pay on a streetcar, she said.

“You almost have to be at a racing speed to get the same cost of a ticket that you get for evading a $3.25 fee,” she said.

Mitchell, who says she’s always paid her fare on the TTC and had about $50 on her Presto card when the incident happened, is determined to dispute the fine.

She said even the officer told her disputing it was the right thing to do: prove that you usually tap on every ride, show a history of uploading money on the card and you might get a significant reduction on the fine.

But that process has proved challenging.

 

[dowlingm]

I saw some reference to the massive increase in ticket issuance on Twitter this morning... but isn’t that about when all door boarding on streetcars began, before which there wasn’t much enforcement because there was a reliance on people being ashamed to pass the operator without paying? The fines definitely need looking at though - attach to streetcar and pass streetcar door should be higher and not paying fare equivalent to a parking fine.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I was on the 506 streetcar four times yesterday, two trips accompanied by four yellow jacketed fare inspectors. Usually I never see them. What pissed me off were the warnings they issued. Don’t give warnings, give fines. Let the perps take it to court or whatever the appeals process is. The front line inspectors need to have no mercy.

 

[APTA-2048]

I was on the 506 streetcar four times yesterday, two trips accompanied by four yellow jacketed fare inspectors. Usually I never see them. What pissed me off were the warnings they issued. Don’t give warnings, give fines. Let the perps take it to court or whatever the appeals process is. The front line inspectors need to have no mercy.

I actually think warnings have their place. Many years ago I was taking the GO train and lost my Presto card while on the train. Fare inspectors came by and I couldn’t show proof of payment. Because it was my first time I got a warning. I’m more careful now and I didn’t have to waste my time going through the appeals process for a stupid mistake.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I actually think warnings have their place. Many years ago I was taking the GO train and lost my Presto card while on the train. Fare inspectors came by and I couldn’t show proof of payment. Because it was my first time I got a warning. I’m more careful now and I didn’t have to waste my time going through the appeals process for a stupid mistake.

You wouldn’t have made it to the appeals process. I can see the application now, “I legit tapped on the platform, but the card I‘d just used somehow disappeared.... so please don’t fine me”. That’d hopefully be returned with a big red rejected stamp.

Imagine applying your logic to any other business. You go into a restaurant, eat and then at the end claim, ohh... snap, I lost my money. Do you expect a free meal? No, I’m expecting you to be detained and if you can’t pay up the police called. You’re essentially a shoplifter.

 

[APTA-2048]

You wouldn’t have made it to the appeals process. I can see the application now, “I legit tapped on the platform, but the card I‘d just used somehow disappeared.... so please don’t fine me”. That’d hopefully be returned with a big red rejected stamp.

Card history showed I paid. Fare inspector said Metrolinx would have that information and I would have been given a warning anyway.

Imagine applying your logic to any other business. You go into a restaurant, eat and then at the end claim, ohh... snap, I lost my money. Do you expect a free meal? No, I’m expecting you to be detained and if you can’t pay up the police called. You’re essentially a shoplifter.

That’s not really the same situation.

 

[Jonny5]

Card history showed I paid. Fare inspector said Metrolinx would have that information and I would have been given a warning anyway.

I have seen the TTC inspectors do this too. They ask if you have the PRESTO app on your phone and can then prove you at least have bought a pass for the month. They instruct those people to buy a ticket for the day and then move on, I imagine because the court tilts in favour of someone who has proof they bought a pass but simply forgot to have it with them at that moment.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Card history showed I paid. Fare inspector said Metrolinx would have that information and I would have been given a warning anyway.

Yeah, you left that essential part out of your original post. You had POP, either through the card or the app.

I'm referring to apparent fare evaders who have no proof of payment, because they either didn't pay or were negligent in securing their proof of payment.

 

[cplchanb]

Theres a reason why the fares are so high. With such a large system its extremely hard to deter everyone so these huge numbers hopefully will scare away potential evaders. I still honestly dont get why some people are so incensed by fines for essentially trespassing or breaking and entering. Just dont do it. If you get caught you pay. If the fine is too high, go to court and ask for a reduction. Its one thing that if you try to tap the machine breaks down or an honest mistake, but for those who knowingly bypass the gates for the kick of it, I have zero sympathy.