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Fare evasion on the TTC...

In Nurnberg, Germany their city trains are completely on the honour system. There is a box to buy your ticket, and then off your go. I saw one inspector checking tickets perhaps one time that entire week.
 
Admiral Beez said:
In Nurnberg, Germany their city trains are completely on the honour system. There is a box to buy your ticket, and then off your go. I saw one inspector checking tickets perhaps one time that entire week.
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Sorry about being pedantic, but...

That's not really the honour system, that's the POP system. If there's any chance that you might face any form of punishment (such as a fine) for not paying, then it's not on your honour.

Anyway, POP is standard for most of continental Europe.
 
Admiral Beez said:
In Nurnberg, Germany their city trains are completely on the honour system. There is a box to buy your ticket, and then off your go. I saw one inspector checking tickets perhaps one time that entire week.
Click to expand...

Southern Germans, particularly in smaller towns outlying cities, are very quick to ridicule fellow citizens who are out of line. That includes dressing above your station (even if easily affordable), complaining about trivial matters (pain due to an infection while said infection is being treated), not paying your own way, etc.

I presume Nurnburg and Stuttgart are similar in this respect.

Someone caught not paying their ticket and witnessed by a coworker would likely be career ruining move.

On Go Transit you would just be picked on for a while.
 
299 bloor call control. said:
The TTC is investigating putting in POP on all streetcar and Transit City routes as part of a study this spring.
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That would be interesting and speed up the 510. Any word on how they would deal with the fare paid areas though?

Also, has anyone ever been checked on the 501?
 
That's the purpose of the study - find worldwide best practices and create strategies and approaches that can be implemented here.

I've been checked on Queen a couple times... that's over the course of 5 years.
 
CDL.TO said:
Sorry about being pedantic, but...

That's not really the honour system, that's the POP system. If there's any chance that you might face any form of punishment (such as a fine) for not paying, then it's not on your honour.

Anyway, POP is standard for most of continental Europe.
Click to expand...

POP = honour system... they're interchangeable terms. GO is considered honour system.
 
Railization said:
POP = honour system... they're interchangeable terms. GO is considered honour system.
Click to expand...

The literature on the subject of fare systems I have read considers them different. I believe there are a few small systems in the world that work on the honour system, everyone else is POP.

Like I said, if there's any chance that you might face any form of punishment (such as a fine) for not paying, then it's not on your honour, is it?
 
Many people by 10 ride tickets and "somehow" they last for three weeks.

Its simple, Go Transit checks rush hour trains perhaps once every 3-6 months...
 
CDL.TO said:
The literature on the subject of fare systems I have read considers them different. I believe there are a few small systems in the world that work on the honour system, everyone else is POP.

Like I said, if there's any chance that you might face any form of punishment (such as a fine) for not paying, then it's not on your honour, is it?
Click to expand...

If there's no chance that you might face any form of punishment for not paying, then there is no fare system at all, period. It's not honour system, it's a systemless system. You pay a fare because it's required, not voluntary. POP is the honour system, because you are very seldom checked - all the times you pay and are not checked, to GO/Viva you've paid on your honour. I don't know what literature would refer to any system that has absolute zero chance of punishment for not paying a fare as a valid fare system. That's a donation, not a fare.
 
Railization said:
If there's no chance that you might face any form of punishment for not paying, then there is no fare system at all, period. It's not honour system, it's a systemless system. You pay a fare because it's required, not voluntary. POP is the honour system, because you are very seldom checked - all the times you pay and are not checked, to GO/Viva you've paid on your honour. I don't know what literature would refer to any system that has absolute zero chance of punishment for not paying a fare as a valid fare system. That's a donation, not a fare.
Click to expand...

The act of having a fare makes it a fare system.

Saying you have to pay $2 to get on this bus, but we won't stop you if you don't doesn't make it a donation, which is by its nature optional. If anything, it probably just means that the cost of hiring an inspector exceeds any fares that would be recovered by hiring one.

It's like growing up in a rural area where people would set up a stand at the side of the road with vegetables for sale and a box for customers to put their money. People come, take the vegetables they want, pay for it (not optional) by putting their money in the box and taking appropriate change from the box, and drive off, all with no attendant. No, I am not making this up, this does happen.

Example #2. In high school I worked at a Conservation Area where admission to the park was $2. On weekdays, there was no staff members on duty. There was a sign at the entrance stating that there were no staff in the park and the required (not optional) admission needed to be placed in a dropbox at the gate. And every Saturday when I showed up to work I would unlock the dropbox and dump out a couple hundred dollars in loose change.

That's what an honour system is. The only punishment for breaking the rule is the damage to your personal sense of honour (and others sense of your honour if they see you). It's a wonderful thing that these days such systems still exist in some places. But I get the feeling that counting on nothing more than people's decency is such a foreign idea to many people that they simply can't believe it exists anywhere.

It's like on-street parking here in Toronto. You park, pay at the machine or metre, and there's a chance that parking enforcement will come along and make sure you paid. No different than GO trains. Personally, I wouldn't say that on-street parking works on the honour system in Toronto.

Anyway, this is a semantic argument that I shouldn't have started in the first place.
 
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If nobody's going to stop you for not paying, then paying is optional... that's irrefutable. You can't say it's required when there are no consequences for not doing something. If it's optional, it's a donation.

Every fare system, including the honour system, requires some form of enforcement. It's not a fare system without enforcement, whether enforcement be carried out by man (inspectors) or machine (automated gates). Fare media is meaningless if its use is optional due to absence of enforcement. Literature can say all it wants, but common sense begs to differ.

I actually like the idea of a system that can sustain itself through donations by its regular users. It's a great utopian vision. But let's be honest and recognize it as a donation... not a fare. "Unenforced fare" is an oxymoron.
 
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