Family Sized Condos

[cdr108]

Not with most people's mindset. Like CDR says, if it costs as much as a SFH, most would rather spend money on a SFH than a condo. But you can't expect a large condo downtown to be cheaper than a SFH outside of downtown. That's why large units don't sell well. Builders were forced to build it, but they have difficulty selling it. Berczy at St. Lawrence market area offered a lot of large units but in the end, they had to cave in and broke up the remaining large units they couldn't sell into 2-3 smaller units.

even if we compare location-to-location and size-to-size:
ie, in KW or liberty village - a 3-bed 1,300 sq ft condo costs same and sometimes more than a 3-bed SFH. ~ $650K - $750K

iirc many of the large Berczy units were awkward spaces that didn't have any windows for interior bedrooms.
if i were paying $650+K, i wouldn't accept anything like that.

 

[PinkLucy]

when were the above constructed?
the above were the norm about 15 years agoi GTA, but the 2-bed 1,800 sq ft is an anomoly ... sounds like something that combined 2 units into 1. iirc i don't know if units that big were common in Tip Top Lofts (i think that's where you said she lives)

it's rare to find 1-bed units bigger than 600 sq ft, or 2-bed units bigger than 1,000 sq ft in Toronto now.

the NYC apartments/condo, according to the article is new construction:

“TCA has had a lot of experience connecting smaller apartments together into a seamless whole, but this adventurous client requested something we’d never seen before. In a newly constructed multi-residential development, in the East Village of NYC, TCA had the opportunity to meet a unique client’s desire to combine two penthouse condos… with a helical slide.

I bought a 2 bedroom unit that is just shy of 1500 sq ft in 2009, took possession in 2011

 

[marsh]

I think there is a need for a diversity of housing in the core. I see large 1 bedroom or 2 bedroom condos being appealing to older people who are downsizing - I don't see this group buying 500 square feet condos and they can probably afford a larger condo. For families, one alternative would be to have more condo townhome developments as part of new development - so instead of massive towers, you could have a tower plus some townhomes (Either single units or stacked) that are larger in size and that could accomodate families. I think townhomes would be more appealing to people with families than a large apartment in a condo tower because it will be more akin to what they grew up with. Also we need more amenities, safe parks, playgrounds etc. for families and for seniors as well. As our homes get smaller, activities are pushed outside of the home. Diveristy can only be a good thing for our city. And right now I see housing only for the wealthy (who can afford single family homes or luxury condos); young single people who are renting/buying the 500 square type condo; and a lack of affordable housing for the poor. What concerns me is what is going to happen when all the young people decide a 500 square foot condo is no longer suitable for their needs.

 

[cdr108]

^ ^ ^

i agree ... there is a lack of selection for new / pre-construction condos being built dt.

if one looks at the proposals by the developers to city planning, you will notice that about 70-80% of the units are 1-bed (majority under 550 sq ft), 1+1 bed units (under 650 sq ft - once the floorplans come out.)

to get a livable/sizeable 2- or 3-bedroom unit to accomodate families or empty nesters, one would have to combine at least 2 or possibly 3 units to get 1,000 to 1,500 square feet, and then go through the added inconvenience of construction and dealing with the board which might deter many.

 

[avenirv]

"What concerns me is what is going to happen when all the young people decide a 500 square foot condo is no longer suitable for their needs"

they will upgrade and this will be very welcome because the boomers will happily sell or rent.
i think a very interesting phenomenon is the fact boomers' kids move to the city. it is interesting to see how youngsters from areas like markham, richmond hill, yonge&sheppard move south and mix with the various other youngsters. you can see so many mixed couples these days ! beautifull.

 

[Eug]

when were the above constructed?
the above were the norm about 15 years agoi GTA, but the 2-bed 1,800 sq ft is an anomoly ... sounds like something that combined 2 units into 1. iirc i don't know if units that big were common in Tip Top Lofts (i think that's where you said she lives)

it's rare to find 1-bed units bigger than 600 sq ft, or 2-bed units bigger than 1,000 sq ft in Toronto now.

Yes, my sister is at Tip Top. No it wasn't 2 units combined into 1. It was built that way, and AFAIK just 6 years ago. The biggest unit there is well over 3000 square feet, but I don't know if that was from 2 units combined or not. However, even though Tip Top is luxury, it's only lower end luxury, but because it's downtown my sis still paid a sheet load of a cash for it, out of reach of an average young family.

My mom is near Bayview Village. There are numerous of 1-bed units around that size in that area, but it's not downtown. It was built about 5 years ago though. There are also 2-bedroom units there that are considerably larger. I'm guessing close to 1000 square feet but I'm not sure. That building does cater to mature residents, so a lot of them are downsizing, but then again in other buildings in the general vicinity the units similarly large, because the cost of land there is cheaper than downtown.

BTW, there is a condo complex going up near where I live that will include 3 bedroom units. The difference though is that it is in Scarborough on inexpensive land, so 3-bedroom will be a lot more affordable.

I think it's easy to see a pattern here... Yes large downtown units do exist but recently built ones are uncommon and extremely expensive. We're often talking 7-digit $ here. OTOH, large units outside of downtown are more common, because they are more affordable, and more appropriate for many young families because of that.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

This just in

Toronto ERs Feel Weight of Condo Boom

“We’re seeing a 5 to 10 per cent increase (in emergency room patients) year after year after year,†says Chopra. “It seems to be endless.â€

Planning for downtown urban growth can be challenging, says Sandeep Agrawal, professor of planning at Ryerson University. Usually, when planners prepare new subdivisions, they design and allocate services according to the planned density.

“Downtown, it’s a bit the other way around, where the population has increased multiple folds and hospitals have to keep up with that,†he says. “Obviously they were not designed initially to cater to that density.â€

Agrawal is worried urban planners have forgotten their discipline’s original purpose which was to mitigate the spread of disease caused by living in close quarters.

“City planning as a profession has moved far from health planning agencies with relatively little or no contact with health and health planning agencies,†he writes in an email.

Future slums. Terrible scary horrible crumbling slums.

 

[James]

I've always wondered if there happens to be a 180° turn in the demographics downtown and more young families choose to raise their kids there, how will the public schools be able to accommodate the new pupils?

 

[Jennypea]

I've always wondered if there happens to be a 180° turn in the demographics downtown and more young families choose to raise their kids there, how will the public schools be able to accommodate the new pupils?

well I can only speak from experience with a kid who started JK last year but in our area (king west, Trinity Bellwoods) the local public school Niagara PS was slated for closure 10 years ago due to lack of demand. Luckily for us it didn't get the ax. Now it's filling up nicely with lots of JK/SK Grade 1 etc showing the change in demographic while it bottlenecks out with very few kids in grade 3-6. but that's expected to change as this increasing young cohort moves up.

so far the school are happy to have the influx of active vibrant families who are involved in the school and the community. whether that overflows remains to be seen but so far it's only been positive from what I can see.

 

[AKS]

I've always wondered if there happens to be a 180° turn in the demographics downtown and more young families choose to raise their kids there, how will the public schools be able to accommodate the new pupils?

I don't know about downtown, but from what I heard, the Willowdale area have overflow of students. Some parents especially moved into the area to attend prestigious schools but with so many condos, it's overflowing and the borders for attending the school is changing. In an article I read, one mom was upset because her child is attending the school, but because of the border change, her child has to change schools.

 

[James]

I don't know about downtown, but from what I heard, the Willowdale area have overflow of students. Some parents especially moved into the area to attend prestigious schools but with so many condos, it's overflowing and the borders for attending the school is changing. In an article I read, one mom was upset because her child is attending the school, but because of the border change, her child has to change schools.

I've definitely heard this too. With the influx the last number of years of condos at Yonge & Sheppard, Bayview & Sheppard and Leslie & Sheppard, I guess it's good news that there are young families with kids living in these condos. If we see a similar trend in the downtown sector, I would expect a similar issue to transpire with regards to public schools too.

 

[AnnetteMeetsJane]

"I've always wondered if there happens to be a 180° turn in the demographics downtown and more young families choose to raise their kids there, how will the public schools be able to accommodate the new pupils?"

There has been reports in the media for the last few days of impending problems in the High Park/The Junction areas due to condo building bringing more children to the area (example CBC report). New construction is certainly going to compound the problem, but it isn't the creator as is being reported because the schools are already over-capacity and the building hasn't really begun yet. Sounds more like what is happening in Willowdale...
Living in the area, it appears that we are beginning to return to historic patterns of density with multiple families living in a single house - We have families rather than single people living in basement apartments and houses being reconverted back to duplex and triplexes from SFH. Families in the area are also getting larger for some reason - lots of families are currently expecting their 3rd or 4th kid where 1 or 2 was the norm a few years ago. I guess people are staying put and building additions, rather than moving out to Mississauga as their families grow...
The community has been trying to get TDSB planners to listen for a few years because we can see that the preschools and daycares are doubling-up capacity and can't keep up. As usual, the TDSB isn't good at listening and the JK enrollment at our local school for Sept. is up more than 10% compared to the school board projections - This translates to almost another classroom of kids and there are no empty classrooms...
It seems to me that we have reached some tipping point and beginning to move towards a different, more European, habitation pattern...

 

[W. K. Lis]

This 76-story skyscraper in New York City is an apartment building in the financial district. See this link.

The first five floors is an elementary school.

The school is sheathed reddish-tan brick, and covers 100,000 square feet (9,300 m2) of the first five floors of the building. It will host over 600 students enrolled in pre-kindergarten through eighth grade classes. A fourth floor roof deck will hold 5,000 square feet (460 m2) of outdoor play space

...

The building also includes space for New York Downtown Hospital. The hospital will take up 25,000 square feet (2,300 m2), and will have public parking below ground.

There will be public plazas on both the east and west sides of the building, one 11,000 square feet (1,000 m2) and the other somewhat smaller.

Street-level retail, totaling approximately 1,300-2,500 square feet, is included as part of the project

 

[Eug]

A friend of mine just bought a starter detached home in East York for well under $600000. Recent construction in a decent neighbourhood (but not high end of course). It's on the small side with average finishes, but then again it's got a small private yard and garden. It's a good value at under $400 per square foot.

This is exactly the type of place a young family would get, in the city. I'd guess the drive downtown from there is about 15 minutes, although in their case they don't work downtown anyway.

It's very difficult to find something like what they got in the central core very close to downtown, unless you spend a crapload more money. I don't see a huge number of average young families capable of spending $900000+ to get such a home, but I do see a lot of young families wanting that interior space, and private yard.

 

[Groperty]

These units will only become more popular after the market has cooled down a bit. A multiple bedroom condo in the downtown core of a city does not come cheap. Places like http://groperty.com/The_Garrison_Fort_York.html are more reasonable priced. Remember to look at other prices in the area, then take a look at the cost of living in adjacent suburbs - you would be surprised how much a 10min walk in any direction could save you.