Failure to Launch? Moving back in with your parents

[to_l]

There should be an understanding that the house belongs to the parents unless the kids are paying towards the mortgage and have a stake in the house as part owner, in which case, they will receive profit from the sale of the house, based on the amount of their contribution. Or alternatively, the kids could buy out the house, under more favourable conditions than they would from a stranger. There should be no expectation that your parents' house belongs to you unless a formal arrangement has been reached stating it as such.

It's cultural, I suppose. Being Asian, it's traditionally much more common for multiple generations to all live under one roof, with the younger generation taking over the burden of the household as the previous generation ages out; not that it's something I personally would do but it's also not something that would strike me as overly odd.

 

[sixrings]

again I think the point is that some parents do not want their children living with them for various reasons. Perhaps they want to walk around naked all day. That may appear like a silly reason but once someone is 25 I think the parents sure as heck can have whatever excuse they want. Again if they are ok with it then it can work if the adult is not a free loader but many srs want to downsize or move to florida or spend their retirement on cruises. They may not feel able to do that if they feel like they still need to financially take care of their adult child. That is where the rub is. Young adults need to be considerate of that.

Also I am old fashioned and so is my wife but there is no way in heck we practice pro creation when we visit either of my parents house. Again that is likely seen as old fashioned but at the same time I think many people think for simple intimacy sake adults need their own space.

Also this which was once a cultural thing is becoming more or less a mainstream thing. I can understand how the older generation which this is not typical in their culture resents this new approach. No one should have to feel like walking on egg shells in their own house. Again although under 40 with a wife 30, I am old fashioned though.

 

[lenaitch]

My initial comments were on the Admiral's post about the article that highlighted the offspring hovering in the parental household waiting for the grim reaper to call on their parents. Beyond that I did not intend to pass judgement on anyone's decision where or how to live.

As mentioned, if the kids have any kind of nest egg, they could consider buying the house and have their parents hold the mortgage and likely get terms and conditions that would be much more favourable than on the open market, but at least they would release their parents to live their own life as they envisioned and give them some cash flow. There are administrative costs to that, but likely less so than when it comes to settling an estate.

Life is all about choices, and choices have impacts. Clearly, there are thriving trades and professions in all cities and many other areas across the country, but if you want to pursue a trade or profession at the Bay/Wall/Fleet Street level, you are focusing your life in a large city, and tacitly accept all that comes with it. I don't imagine Toronto is is any worse than New York or London for cost of living. Heck, if you can parlay an advanced degree in medieval poetry into a living career, great; but if you can't, then possibly life choices need to be re-examined. Perhaps that is part of the problem - too many people going into or coming out of post-secondary education with no realistic idea where they want to go with it and how they will get there.

Toronto is very expensive but not uniquely so, and I understand and appreciate that. But when I hear and see young adults (I'm related to a couple) holding a large student debt but living with marble counters, a 60" TV, all the specialty channel and an all-singing-all-dancing smartphone and maybe a kid or two, then complaining they just can't get ahead, then clearly, choices need to be re-examined.

I was born and raised in Toronto and perhaps lucky to have a successful career that took me all over Ontario. Yes, away from family and friends, but I made a boatload of new friends. I just never considered that my life's course was dependent on anyone else other than my own household.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Toronto is very expensive

Outside of the cost of housing, Toronto isn't very expensive. When I lived in Fredericton, NB we paid a lot more for food, heating the house was massively expensive, gas for cars is at least $0.25 more a litre than ON, insurance and annual registration costs for autos were also very high, and property taxes as a percentage of value were much higher. And then there's income tax, Ontario is significantly lower than many provinces, including NB. Living in Toronto I have relatively low property taxes and utility costs, inexpensive parking and food costs, and affordable public transit.

 

[lenaitch]

Outside of the cost of housing, Toronto isn't very expensive. When I lived in Fredericton, NB we paid a lot more for food, heating the house was massively expensive, gas for cars is at least $0.25 more a litre than ON, insurance and annual registration costs for autos were also very high, and property taxes as a percentage of value were much higher. And then there's income tax, Ontario is significantly lower than many provinces, including NB. Living in Toronto I have relatively low property taxes and utility costs, inexpensive parking and food costs, and affordable public transit.

Completely agree; I was referencing the cost of buying and carrying a house. The down payment alone is a huge 'right now' amount. There are many, many places where the expenses you mention outstrip Toronto. I have a friend who recently relocated to NS and, while he went down the road with the equity difference in his jeans, all the other costs you mention are higher. He figures his marginal tax rate is about 7% higher, and the average waiting period for a family doctor is about 5 years.

 

[Admiral Beez]

and the average waiting period for a family doctor is about 5 years.

I'd forgotten about that. At the time we lived in NB we had infant twins, and getting health care was always difficult. First of all, there is no children's hospital in NB, so anything important requires a transfer to the Kill'em children's hospital in Halifax. Then there's a near total lack of MRIs in NB, my daughter required a MRI and we had to wait for an unheated truck carrying the province's mobile MRI clinic to show up. We never got a family doctor, but thankfully managed to get into a walk in clinic, the twins had an appeal to their admissions team of both novelty and double-billing. When we moved back to Toronto we nearly kissed Sick Kids.

The proximity of the nation's top hospitals is one reason I'll never be one of those seniors who relocates from downtown to the sticks, since as you age both your ability to drive decreases and your need for medical attention increases. My Dad was in Princess Margaret, for example, and I was able to walk there from Cabbagetown, and bikeshare home afterward. You don't get that if you move to Napanee.

 

[lenaitch]

I'd forgotten about that. At the time we lived in NB we had infant twins, and getting health care was always difficult. First of all, there is no children's hospital in NB, so anything important requires a transfer to the Kill'em children's hospital in Halifax. Then there's a near total lack of MRIs in NB, my daughter required a MRI and we had to wait for an unheated truck carrying the province's mobile MRI clinic to show up. We never got a family doctor, but thankfully managed to get into a walk in clinic, the twins had an appeal to their admissions team of both novelty and double-billing. When we moved back to Toronto we nearly kissed Sick Kids.

The proximity of the nation's top hospitals is one reason I'll never be one of those seniors who relocates from downtown to the sticks, since as you age both your ability to drive decreases and your need for medical attention increases. My Dad was in Princess Margaret, for example, and I was able to walk there from Cabbagetown, and bikeshare home afterward. You don't get that if you move to Napanee.

I hear ya. I have one friend who never really left Toronto but always a fishing, hunting, canoeing, camping type of guy and now that he is retired and the kids gone we all thought he'd pull the pin but those are the exact reasons he cited for staying. Perhaps not necessarily Toronto in particular, but proximity to a full-service regional health centre becomes more important as one ages.

 

[christiesplits]

I know a couple who recently had a kid. The couple had their own apartment, but once they had their child, they moved in with the guy's parents in a three bedroom semi in the Danforth East area. It's not what they wanted, but hey, it's in a good school district and near transit. Plus, they can put aside some money for childcare, RESPs, and a down payment if things ever settle down.

I imagine this is happening more, and not just among Southern European or Asian families.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I know a couple who recently had a kid. The couple had their own apartment, but once they had their child, they moved in with the guy's parents in a three bedroom semi in the Danforth East area. It's not what they wanted, but hey, it's in a good school district and near transit. Plus, they can put aside some money for childcare, RESPs, and a down payment if things ever settle down..

Mother of god, I can’t imagine doing that. I hope they clearly checked this out with his parents, since they now can’t sell, can’t use their equity to enjoy their senior years, and are now likely expected to stay in the Danforth house until they expire so their son and his gang can inherit the place.

When my brothers and I moved out in the mid to late 1990s, our parents waited ten years or so, and then sold their five bedroom house near Vic Park and Kingston Road, and took the huge profit, bought themselves a two bedroom condo and then traveled and enjoyed life. We had a great time with them after we all moved out, with family dinners and outings with the grand kids. Outside of an emergency shelter, we had no expectations of them providing a safe harbour for our now adult selves and our children. I’m the parent now, that’s my job, until my kids are themselves adults and working.

 

[pman]

Mother of god, I can’t imagine doing that. I hope they clearly checked this out with his parents, since they now can’t sell, can’t use their equity to enjoy their senior years, and are now likely expected to stay in the Danforth house until they expire so their son and his gang can inherit the place.

When my brothers and I moved out in the mid to late 1990s, our parents waited ten years or so, and then sold their five bedroom house near Vic Park and Kingston Road, and took the huge profit, bought themselves a two bedroom condo and then traveled and enjoyed life. We had a great time with them after we all moved out, with family dinners and outings with the grand kids. Outside of an emergency shelter, we had no expectations of them providing a safe harbour for our now adult selves and our children. I’m the parent now, that’s my job, until my kids are themselves adults and working.

To be fair, the ratio of house prices to incomes is a lot higher now than it was in the 1990’s, and incomes haven’t kept pace. Millennials have it way harder than (my) boomer generation did. As long as my adult kids are working and being serious about their lives, I’m more than happy for them to live with me rent-free. I suspect a lot of boomers feel the same way. Plus they feed the cat and take care of the house when I’m away for extended periods, so I benefit in a purely selfish sense (which isn’t why I do it).

 

[TrickyRicky]

Admiral, I admire your passion on this issue but I wonder if your opinion will change over time? Your opinion tends to gel with many of the traditional "Canadian" boomer style views on cashing out, enjoying retirement, having a self-funding retirement where your assets trend to zero towards your death, encouraging your children to be financially independent and to make their own way in life etc.

Most retirees I find greatly over estimate the amount of time they have to enjoy themselves, and money they need to do so. Basically, you've got maybe if you are lucky 10 years of retirement before you a) can't enjoy the things you want because of health issues b) don't care about the retirement plans you made before. The future greatest issue I find retirees caring about is being in close proximity to their grandchildren and how often they can visit them. By age 75 the world travel, vacation properties, boats, golf club memberships etc. are gone, sold, or not cared about.

The second part about making it on your own, honestly, and no offense but I feel this is increasingly a philosophical conceit of a dying way of life here in North America. The real world, which Canada is reluctant but eventually being forced to join, is a hyper competitive, unfair place. Multi-generational thinking and synergistic organizational thinking is the only way to get ahead. Steven Covey popularized the idea of three states of being: Dependent, independent, and Synergistic. North American thinking tended to focus on being independent as the primary goal; however, that is not the most effective mode of operation and it is not the way it works in most of the world. In the real world most people are dependent and a smaller minority of people think and act in a synergistic fashion and own and rule everything.

On a small scale, synergistic thinking could be a family working together, thinking multi-generationally to keep themselves housed. That family will out-compete a family of individualists any day. Working together of course doesn't mean one person works and the other people free load, of course not. You can't think synergistically without first understanding or being independent. Maybe that is the issue and the attitudinal problem we should be criticizing rather than the concept of who is living where, when, and how old they are?

 

[lenaitch]

Interesting observations. Many cultures, including those that have a significant presence in the GTA, view multi-generational households as quite normal with the participants all contributing a role to the 'common cause'; sort of like a corporation with kids. The problem may be with those who move back with their parents without the presence of the cultural acceptance is that it seems not all involved may be willingly and voluntarily on the same page, as opposed to having it thrust upon them. Perhaps this well evolve. It will interesting to see how issues such as estate law, family law and social credits and benefits evolves to deal with it fairly.

Whether or not this will become a wider norm remains to be seen. If it does, it will likely take root first in the high-cost urban areas such as Toronto.

 

[sixrings]

What happens if you have two kids who want to move home with their spouses and children?? What if there is three?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Admiral, I admire your passion on this issue but I wonder if your opinion will change over time? Your opinion tends to gel with many of the traditional "Canadian" boomer style views on cashing out, enjoying retirement, having a self-funding retirement where your assets trend to zero towards your death, encouraging your children to be financially independent and to make their own way in life etc.

Most retirees I find greatly over estimate the amount of time they have to enjoy themselves, and money they need to do so. Basically, you've got maybe if you are lucky 10 years of retirement before you a) can't enjoy the things you want because of health issues b) don't care about the retirement plans you made before. The future greatest issue I find retirees caring about is being in close proximity to their grandchildren and how often they can visit them. By age 75 the world travel, vacation properties, boats, golf club memberships etc. are gone, sold, or not cared about.

The second part about making it on your own, honestly, and no offense but I feel this is increasingly a philosophical conceit of a dying way of life here in North America. The real world, which Canada is reluctant but eventually being forced to join, is a hyper competitive, unfair place. Multi-generational thinking and synergistic organizational thinking is the only way to get ahead. Steven Covey popularized the idea of three states of being: Dependent, independent, and Synergistic. North American thinking tended to focus on being independent as the primary goal; however, that is not the most effective mode of operation and it is not the way it works in most of the world. In the real world most people are dependent and a smaller minority of people think and act in a synergistic fashion and own and rule everything.

On a small scale, synergistic thinking could be a family working together, thinking multi-generationally to keep themselves housed. That family will out-compete a family of individualists any day. Working together of course doesn't mean one person works and the other people free load, of course not. You can't think synergistically without first understanding or being independent. Maybe that is the issue and the attitudinal problem we should be criticizing rather than the concept of who is living where, when, and how old they are?

interesting points and POV, thanks.

I do believe in the strength and leverage of the extended family unit working together. For example, we've got fully funded resp for the kids, and will be helping them both buy their first homes, and my plan has been to start a business so that they can have the option of guaranteed employment. So, the Beez family vs the world is definitely part of my thinking. If the kids want to live with us into their 30s that's fine, but not with their mates and kids, they have to take some steps to leave the nest and seek some independence.

I also agree that my path of leaving home in my 20s and seeking independence from family is a dying or declining path. In my case there was no real option, I had to go. My father and his brothers fled as far as they could from home in the UK as soon as they could, one uncle at 18 went down to Southampton UK and got on a ship for Australia and never came back. So, my family never had strong generational links. It's a little sad, so I make sure to foster very strong links with my girls. That said, if they start circling my aged self waiting for me to croak so they can inherit the place, I may bring up this Toronto Life article again, lol.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What happens if you have two kids who want to move home with their spouses and children?? What if there is three?

reminds me of the fighting when the family cottage has to be decided upon at death of the parents.

Best option is to have a strong will that is openly discussed with your kids beforehand.