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F-35 Fighter Jet Purchase

The only point that seems to be in general agreement is that, should a decision be made solely on the bases of operational need and defence policy grounds, it will be a world first.

If only. It has never been this way. Under either party. Despite what they claim. Politicians just can't resist looking at such a large pot of money and angling to get some benefit to their riding. But because we're a large country with a less skilled (on high tech manufacturing at least) workforce, we end up with lots of crap work distributed throughout the country. Contractors have literally bought mennonite furniture from Manitoba to meet offset requirements.

What's particularly bothersome in this particular case is the uncanny parallels to the EH-101. Then too, a PM ignored all technical and expert advise and simply decided he had to cancel a procurement because it was a campaign promise. Canada lost a manufacturing line for the EH-101 that did substantial damage to our aerospace sector. The military lost a timely replacement and substantial capability. It's so bad that the S-92s inducted into service still don't have the capabilities that the EH-101 cancelled by Chretien 25 years ago had. And the S-92s ended up costing more than the original EH-101s. I like Chretien but that was an absolutely terrible decision. And now we're repeating the same mistake with the F-35.

Politicians see an easy target. A mostly ignorant public can be drip fed select stories to feed their narrative. And by law, military and public servants can't counter the narrative publicly. It all worked until the Liberals got elected and probably learned that lifecycle costs for the F-35 are lower than jets in the same class. They also learned that American anger at Canadian antics didn't change with administrations. And that our aerospace sector wasn't interested in a few years of low skilled assembly work while losing out on 30 years of high skilled niche development. But they made a promise so they decided to try and muddle through anyway.... Everyone in a blue uniform is getting flashbacks of Chretien and the EH-101 right now.
 
If only. It has never been this way. Under either party. Despite what they claim. Politicians just can't resist looking at such a large pot of money and angling to get some benefit to their riding. But because we're a large country with a less skilled (on high tech manufacturing at least) workforce, we end up with lots of crap work distributed throughout the country. Contractors have literally bought mennonite furniture from Manitoba to meet offset requirements.

What's particularly bothersome in this particular case is the uncanny parallels to the EH-101. Then too, a PM ignored all technical and expert advise and simply decided he had to cancel a procurement because it was a campaign promise. Canada lost a manufacturing line for the EH-101 that did substantial damage to our aerospace sector. The military lost a timely replacement and substantial capability. It's so bad that the S-92s inducted into service still don't have the capabilities that the EH-101 cancelled by Chretien 25 years ago had. And the S-92s ended up costing more than the original EH-101s. I like Chretien but that was an absolutely terrible decision. And now we're repeating the same mistake with the F-35.

Politicians see an easy target. A mostly ignorant public can be drip fed select stories to feed their narrative. And by law, military and public servants can't counter the narrative publicly. It all worked until the Liberals got elected and probably learned that lifecycle costs for the F-35 are lower than jets in the same class. They also learned that American anger at Canadian antics didn't change with administrations. And that our aerospace sector wasn't interested in a few years of low skilled assembly work while losing out on 30 years of high skilled niche development. But they made a promise so they decided to try and muddle through anyway.... Everyone in a blue uniform is getting flashbacks of Chretien and the EH-101 right now.

Wasn't it also Chretien who purchased the used subs from the UK, then left them to sit a baste in seawater for several years because he couldn't figure out a way to sell the purchase (either to the public or government, I'n not sure)?
 
Wasn't it also Chretien who purchased the used subs from the UK, then left them to sit a baste in seawater for several years because he couldn't figure out a way to sell the purchase (either to the public or government, I'n not sure)?

It was. Not entirely sure I'd blame that on Chretien. The Navy certainly didn't react fast enough to get them into service. But then again, the Navy was also facing cuts during the same time period so.....
 
Everything is playing out just as I predicted.

This government made a foolish election promise without all the facts. Then got into power, got shown the data on what jet was the best for value and industrial return. And then panicked. They had to modify their industrial benefits rules to make the F-35 viable after getting called out by the Americans:


And as anyone could have predicted it lead to this:


In every competition that the F-35 has participated, it has won. Boeing and Airbus know this. Hence why they are complaining about a basic requirement like being able to egress safely after dropping ordinance in defended airspace. Apparently asking to get the jet and pilot back in one piece is too much. And they are using exactly the same language as the 2015 Liberal campaign literature which labeled a survivability feature as "first strike".

What a mess. And all predictable. I am just hoping this doesn't turn out as bad as the Sea King replacement. We've already committed to spend a billion just to avoid making the Liberals look bad after the botched Super Hornet sole-sourcing attempt.
 
Everything is playing out just as I predicted.

This government made a foolish election promise without all the facts. Then got into power, got shown the data on what jet was the best for value and industrial return. And then panicked. They had to modify their industrial benefits rules to make the F-35 viable after getting called out by the Americans:


And as anyone could have predicted it lead to this:


In every competition that the F-35 has participated, it has won. Boeing and Airbus know this. Hence why they are complaining about a basic requirement like being able to egress safely after dropping ordinance in defended airspace. Apparently asking to get the jet and pilot back in one piece is too much. And they are using exactly the same language as the 2015 Liberal campaign literature which labeled a survivability feature as "first strike".

What a mess. And all predictable. I am just hoping this doesn't turn out as bad as the Sea King replacement. We've already committed to spend a billion just to avoid making the Liberals look bad after the botched Super Hornet sole-sourcing attempt.

As someone who seems fairly close and knowledgeable, what are your thoughts on a mixed fleet? It obviously has significant added costs and logistical issues (but when has that stopped a politician spending other peoples money) but it might allow the government to save face, keep more players happy and end-run potential law suits and the inevitable trade complaints. The F-35 to meet our NATO commitments and 'x' to meet out NORAD commitments. My concern with an all-35 fleet is the cost to operate and house them in relation to our northern frontier. I understand Australia is having to spend big bucks for special climate-controlled hangars (their issue is heat). I'd hate to see a fighter force that ends up beggaring the other services who have their own big buck procurement needs.
 
As someone who seems fairly close and knowledgeable, what are your thoughts on a mixed fleet? It obviously has significant added costs and logistical issues (but when has that stopped a politician spending other peoples money) but it might allow the government to save face, keep more players happy and end-run potential law suits and the inevitable trade complaints.

Politicians can order anything. And the military will do it. Even if we're extremely displeased it.

The attempted sole-source of the Super Hornet was going to give us a mixed fleet. That plane has virtually nothing in common with the legacy Hornet. And the Liberal plan was to rob personnel and YFR (yearly flying rate = funding) from the existing fleet to get the Super Hornet squadron stood up. Everyone hated the idea. Would have left us with five subpar operational squadrons instead of four that are getting by.

About a decade ago there was policy direction from the Chief of Air Staff: one type per role. No mixed fleets. This is the must cost-effective solution for a small military with a limited budget and a large country and demanding foreign policy. Governments can order otherwise. But they can be sure nobody in uniform will defend them when the AG comes looking for numbers. Pushed a mixed fleet and every staff officer will happily spend hours explaining to the AG exactly how fiscally irresponsible your government is.


The F-35 to meet our NATO commitments and 'x' to meet out NORAD commitments. My concern with an all-35 fleet is the cost to operate and house them in relation to our northern frontier. I understand Australia is having to spend big bucks for special climate-controlled hangars (their issue is heat). I'd hate to see a fighter force that ends up beggaring the other services who have their own big buck procurement needs.

1. No real concern about operating costs when our legacy fleet costs are going up daily. And F-35 operating costs will come down and stabilize over time. This is normal for every new fleet.

2. No issues operating in the North. If you look at several of our northern airports on Google (look at Yellowknife and Inuvik) you can see the Quick Reaction hangars built when these fields were deemed Forward Operating Bases. Most have been renovated or rebuilt in the last decade or so. We've been dealing with cold weather operations for a while. And have climate controlled facilities have always been part of that. The CAF works with these northern airports to make sure the airfields are ready to support ops any time.

Australia never built climate controlled facilities in remote areas because they never had to worry about having a climate controlled environment to work in. Warm climates were easier like that. Climate change is making it worse for them. This has never been the case for our Arctic ops. Sheltered and controlled facilities were always preferred. Starting a jet at -30C always sucks. Maintenance is exceptionally difficult at that temp.

3. We don't specifically need F-35s to meet NATO/NORAD commitments. We just prefer them because flying what everyone else has makes it easier and cheaper for us.
 
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About a decade ago there was policy direction from the Chief of Air Staff: one type per role.

That could be the nub of the argument should it come to that; NATO and NORAD are distinct roles. Who knows. They've been shoehorning the Griffon into multiple roles; SAR, escort, SOR and ground support, under the guise of "utility". I have a screwdriver like that - doesn't do any of the jobs particularly well.
 
That could be the nub of the argument should it come to that; NATO and NORAD are distinct roles.

No. From our perspective it's one role: tactical fighter

Role: aircraft

Tactical airlift: C130J Hercules
Strategic airlift: C17 Globemaster
Maritime Helicopter: CH148 Cyclone
Tactical helicopter: CH146 Griffon
SAR Helicopter: CH149 Cormorant
SAR Fixed Wing: CC295
Heavy lift helicopter:.CH147 Chinook
Maritime Patrol: CP140 Aurora
Refueling: CC150 Polaris

Aircraft can be used outside their primary role. But when buying replacement fleets, the only consideration is the primary role.

They've been shoehorning the Griffon into multiple roles; SAR, escort, SOR and ground support, under the guise of "utility".

A huge part of the Griffon being used so widely was that we didn't buy other platforms. It's giving up SAR duties and going back to being mostly for Army use with the purchase of extra EH-101s. The Griffon was a crappy political purchase forced on the CAF by Chretien. Had the air force had a choice we'd have bought Blackhawks or Twin Hueys and attack helicopters.
 
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At this point, the competition can't be manipulated. The RFP is out. Any shenanigans will make the lawsuit settlements bigger.

If the F-35 wins, they just declare victory and say we got a better deal.

The insanity is how much the delay cost us. Aside from the Aussie jets, there's the upgrade costs to keep the Hornet fleet combat capable:


Imagine you have a 12 year old BMW you bought for $50k when brand new. Would you put $10k into it to drive it another 4 years?
 
@kEiThZ I probably would. I had a 1969 Triumph motorcycle that I bought for $3,600 in 2006 and put I’d estimate $14,000 into parts and repairs before selling it in 2016. I just couldn’t say no, lol.

Now, several dozen of those.... nope.
 
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From KH’s deeply informed comments, I assume the F35 will win the competition. However, from the polls I assume the next government will be a Liberal minority supported by the Greens and NDP. I wonder if such a government would go ahead with the F35.
 

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