Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[afransen]

It's Eglinton West that's the priority here. Kennedy-Yonge is a relatively recent development. The TTC is pursuing it because it sees an opportunity to graft a crosstown route along an old subway corridor. And it's not going to be as slow as some people think. It's 30 km. At the projected speed, it's going to be an hour and change to ride from Kennedy to the airport. That's not all that different from riding the BD and taking the bus from Kipling. Likewise for it being a link between Kennedy and the Yonge line. Anybody who has to travel north of Davisville will probably use Eglinton. As will anybody whose bus route intercepts Eglinton. That would not change even if Eglinton was HRT.

Are those transfers factored into ridership projections?

I guess we had better hope that Eglinton will never justify/require heavy rail subway. It'll be bloody expensive to put it in.

 

[Chuck]

I have to agree with many of the previous comments which stated that the surface routes might compromise the performance of the Eglinton line. I'd like to see some extra storage tracks added at Keele and at Leslie so that there can be underground only trains. This should buffer the underground portion from the unreliable surface portions, and would be particularly useful during snow storms which would otherwise shut down the underground portion as well.

 

[Voltz]

If shutting down during the least busy times would not save money, they why would full shutdown save money?

Because all the various mechanical, signal, electrical and track systems could be completely shut down and mothballed. If the line where to stay open at certain times then all those systems still would need to be maintained and operational just as they are today, and the only savings would come from less electrical power used for trains.

 

[LowerBay]

That article says the Eglinton LRT will only be 4 km/hr faster than a bus! The bus is coming in at 16-18 km/hr whereas the LRT will run at 22 km/hr (averaged across the entire route of course).

If this is true and we're spending $4.6 billion for a 4 km/hr increase, Miller and Giambrone should have their heads examined microscopically. I never realized the speed increase was that little.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

it probably isn't just about speed increase, it's about capacity increase. as long as the tunnel section can be easily upgraded for a future changeover to subway service, it's not all bad.

the best thing toronto residents can do and should do is lobby and show support for the line to be a subway (heavy rail) for the entire length. plans can change if there's a will.

 

[LowerBay]

But $4.6 billion for a 4 km/hr improvement? -- even if it does increase capacity and reliability, the end result clearly does not justify the amount of money invested. There's really no way any sensible person can spin this in favor of the line. I thought the line would avg. about 30 km/hr - ie. close to double the speed of the current bus.

If we want it to be a subway, we'd have to gag and stuff Miller, Giambrone, and Steve Munro in a closet somewhere.

 

[doady]

it probably isn't just about speed increase, it's about capacity increase.

They could just use articulated buses.

40 articulated buses = $30 million

Eglinton LRT = $4.6 billion

Hmm... they are going to pay an awful lot for more capacity.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

They could just use articulated buses.

40 articulated buses = $30 million

Eglinton LRT = $4.6 billion

Hmm... they are going to pay an awful lot for more capacity.

but wouldn't buses get stuck in traffic, be more effected by weather, car accidents, etc?

plus, the tunneled section of the LRT could possibly be used for future subway service.


don't get me wrong, i'd rather have a full subway (heavy rail) for the entire stretch but i suppose i'm just happy that we're actually getting anything.


p.s, i don't think it's too late for miller to go back to mcguinty and ask for more cash. i hope he does and i hope we get it.

 

[officedweller]

I didn't notice much in the way of winter-related service suspensions on the Yonge line through Davisville/Rosemount this last winter. Yet every time it snowed the SRT was closed.

Come to think of it - SkyTrain runs trains all night in snow to keep the guideway clear of snow. Since the SRT is "manually driven" the cost may be prohibitive for the SRT. The cost may not factor in as much for a fully automated line.

 

[nfitz]

Come to think of it - SkyTrain runs trains all night in snow to keep the guideway clear of snow. Since the SRT is "manually driven" the cost may be prohibitive for the SRT. The cost may not factor in as much for a fully automated line.

Can't see it being a cost issue; if they kept 2 vehicles running all night, the operator costs would be a fraction of the cost for all the extra bus operators the next morning.

 

[cacruden]

They could just use articulated buses.

40 articulated buses = $30 million

Eglinton LRT = $4.6 billion

Hmm... they are going to pay an awful lot for more capacity.

Only 40 articulated buses on all of Eglinton. If I remember 20 years ago when I worked up that way, it was 3 buses coming every 5 minutes or so during rush hour (and that was only half the route). I would be surprised if 40 buses would do it.

 

[Voltz]

That article says the Eglinton LRT will only be 4 km/hr faster than a bus! The bus is coming in at 16-18 km/hr whereas the LRT will run at 22 km/hr (averaged across the entire route of course).

If this is true and we're spending $4.6 billion for a 4 km/hr increase, Miller and Giambrone should have their heads examined microscopically. I never realized the speed increase was that little.

The speed increase is not that little, that 22 km/h figure is from the all surface sheppard LRT, the final speed figure for eglinton will be higher because of the underground section that will operate just as fast as any subway, and because the stop spacing on the surface sections is wider than sheppard. I doubt any speed simulations have been done for eglinton, so everyone is just using the figure from sheppard.

Besides that, busses will not be able to handle the future demand on eglinton.

 

[confusion]

Buses are an additional cost to the city because of the toll they take on the roads and the cost to keep them fueled up. These are solid arguments to move forward at least with the LRT.

 

[Brandon716]

I would like to use some real world examples to compare with.

The T here in Pittsburgh (a high quality LRT line that turns into a subway downtown) has several lines, and from my station at Castle Shannon's Willow stop, you have two options since the lines come together at that point.

You can take the Mt Lebanon-Beechview line on the 42 trains that runs through very urban territory and crosses many city street intersections and runs inside of traffic, not even separated in its own lane, for about 1km.

Second option is a more express train on the Overbrook line, and the 47 trains that run on this line have "express stops," no traffic mixing and no signals to contend with. By express stops I mean there are only 8 stations between downtown and Castle Shannon as opposed to the many stops on the Mt Lebanon-Beechview line where stops can be spaced less than 100 meters apart at times.

The entire length between Castle Shannon and downtown's 1st Ave station is approximately 10km, or 6 miles.

It takes me 21-23 minutes to get downtown on the 47 trains via the express oriented Overbrook line, if I chose to get on a 42 train and go through Mt Lebanon and Beechview, it takes 29-30 minutes.

You can do the calculations yourself, but for the same distance the express subway-speed 47 trains only gain 8 minutes for 10 km.

I don't think the speed will be nearly as bad as some people think, the Mt Lebanon-Beechview line doesn't even run in suburban streets, it crosses several very urban districts right in the street where traffic commonly backs up, and runs in traffic for a short part.

Here is a map to help you visualize everything. I live near the Willow stop in downtown Castle Shannon, and I have a choice to take and commonly switch out between the 42 and 47 trains. Usually the wait for the next train is longer than if I just hop on a 42 train.

Pittsburgh has a very unique system, because some very old traditional streetcar lines were incorporated into the system. The 52 train runs in traffic up in the Allentown community, and it runs entirely in traffic, yet it is retrofitted to use only modern LRT cars.

On the map above, both the 52 Allentown service (which is limited service) and the 42 trains have sections that run through traffic. If you look at the 42 trains, the section between Potomac station and Fallowfield station is the in-street portion.

And if you're still not too confused, the large dots are platform stations where you enter at any door, and there are usually fare booth attendants, especially during rush hour. The small dots are low level platforms where you only can enter at the front of the train and have to pay the driver.

So in order to travel 10km, on the Overbrook line it takes approx. 22 minutes, and in traffic it takes 29 minutes.

 

[Brandon716]

And here are some photos to demonstrate the versatility of light rail.

Downtown's Steel Plaza:

In-street 42 trains between Potomac and Fallowfield:

Central Beechview:

First Avenue Station, first station as the trains exit the downtown subway tunnel:

Actually on the 1st Ave station platform, and you can see the two cars per train during rush hour: