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Dufferin Street: Eliminating the jog

junctionist

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The mosaic art is great. It's wonderful to see some investment in beautifying everyday infrastructure through art. The only negative is that the works aren't as large as originally suggested in the renderings for the underpass, where they took up all the space within the black frames.
 
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Paolo

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looks great, i remember 3-4 years ago, im like wtf? dufferin ends? thank goodness i found this and im happy to see they built the new tunnell
 

W. K. Lis

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The City of Toronto is currently doing watermain replacement and combined sewer replacement on Dufferin Street, just north of the underpass at Queen Street, between Peel and Dundas. When they built the Dufferin underpass, they laid a concrete foundation suitable for adding streetcar tracks on top of them in the future.

When Dufferin Street is repaved between Peel and Dundas, what are the chances that the city will pour suitable concrete foundation for a future streetcar track connection between the current end of track at Queen Street West and Dundas Street West? Suitable for a 522 Exhibition West streetcar, perhaps?
 
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drum118

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The City of Toronto is currently doing watermain replacement and combined sewer replacement on Dufferin Street, just north of the underpass at Queen Street, between Peel and Dundas. When they built the Dufferin underpass, they laid a concrete foundation suitable for adding streetcar tracks on top of them in the future.

When Dufferin Street is repaved between Peel and Dundas, what are the chances that the city will pour suitable concrete foundation for a future streetcar track connection between the current end of track at Queen Street West and Dundas Street West? Suitable for a 522 Exhibition West streetcar, perhaps?
Yes they did and if you look back a fair number of pages, you will see the photo showing it. Also type Dufferin Job on my Flickr account and you should see it.

It is a concrete form with asphalt fill in it under the current road surface.

There is still the vision going to Bloor, but will never happen since there is no room for a loop there. Need to go to Dupont to do that. If TTC had gone to duel end cars like they should of, then stub tracks is only needed.

As for future concrete foundation, not in the cards at this time due to a Mayor in office and way down the road in the first place. $$$$$
 

MetroMan

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Yes they did and if you look back a fair number of pages, you will see the photo showing it. Also type Dufferin Job on my Flickr account and you should see it.

It is a concrete form with asphalt fill in it under the current road surface.

There is still the vision going to Bloor, but will never happen since there is no room for a loop there. Need to go to Dupont to do that. If TTC had gone to duel end cars like they should of, then stub tracks is only needed.

As for future concrete foundation, not in the cards at this time due to a Mayor in office and way down the road in the first place. $$$$$
There's plenty of room at Dufferin Mall's north parking lot or behind the school for a streetcar loop. The city is obviously thinking forward to this as Dufferin should become an LRT priority in the next wave or projects. Exhibition to Bloor is a good start but I think that it needs to go all the way to the Eglinton LRT Crosswtown to cover most of the demand serviced by the Dufferin Bus.
 

Johnny Au

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There's plenty of room at Dufferin Mall's north parking lot or behind the school for a streetcar loop. The city is obviously thinking forward to this as Dufferin should become an LRT priority in the next wave or projects. Exhibition to Bloor is a good start but I think that it needs to go all the way to the Eglinton LRT Crosswtown to cover most of the demand serviced by the Dufferin Bus.
I want to know what is the old Ursula Franklin Academy/temporary location of the Royal Conservatory of Music can be used for with regards to the loop?
 

W. K. Lis

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I want to know what is the old Ursula Franklin Academy/temporary location of the Royal Conservatory of Music can be used for with regards to the loop?
The Galleria Mall's parking lot at Dupont & Dufferin could be used for a loop. Not that much action at that mall, so having the loop there would not be take "valuable" parking space away.
 

ShonTron

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I don't see the point of building a new streetcar line on Dufferin for the sake of building a streetcar line on Dufferin. The 29 is a pain, sure, but the TTC simply won't build new revenue trackage without a right-of-way. Indeed, except a one-block section of the St. Clair streetcar in 1980, all new revenue streetcar trackage was built in ROWs - the Harbourfront Line, the new Exhibition Loop and Fleet Street, Spadina Line, the Cherry Street spur now underway.

The 29 is slow and unreliable, but somehow I'd argue it works simply because of the number of buses the TTC dumps on that route (I've never had to wait more than 10 minutes for a Dufferin Bus, while I've been left stewing waiting 20-30 minutes for other north-south routes like 7 Bathurst) , and there's too much through traffic through Dufferin Station that would inconvenience too many people with a new transfer. Not only would you need a streetcar loop, you'd also need a bus loop as Dufferin doesn't suddenly become irrelevant north of Bloor or Galleria Mall. Buses from the north would have to loop via Dufferin Mall or College-Sheridan-Dundas (both not unheard of for unscheduled short turns, but good luck manking either a permanent loop). Then you'd have an overlap of streetcar and bus.

As I wrote recently, Dufferin is interesting because except the tracks from King/Queen to the Exhbition (special events, short-turns and detours only), and a short jog between Lappin and Hallam, it never had streetcar service. And not a through bus service until 1962.

I'm not against extending streetcar tracks on Dufferin to Dundas or College, as it would be very useful for detours and the such (and a better route for the 522 Dundas-Exhibition that will make a return this year), but not in the name of a new Dufferin streetcar.
 

W. K. Lis

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Over on Steve Munro's blog (see this link), he made this comment to a comment.

...decades ago when the streetcars were replaced with buses on Bay, the buses could not make the running time of the streetcar service. On a much smaller scale, even the Mt. Pleasant bus that replaced the streetcar was unable to keep up with the streetcar schedule. The Junction bus had the same problem replacing the Dundas car.
Too bad we couldn't replace the Dufferin bus with a streetcar along its entire route. It would be an interesting experiment.
 

Molybdenum

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I'm not against extending streetcar tracks on Dufferin to Dundas or College, as it would be very useful for detours and the such (and a better route for the 522 Dundas-Exhibition that will make a return this year), but not in the name of a new Dufferin streetcar.
Looks like we are only getting the 521 Exhibition East streetcar back this year, and not the 522 as previously announced. The 193 will operate again this year, same as recent years.
 

W. K. Lis

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Looks like we are only getting the 521 Exhibition East streetcar back this year, and not the 522 as previously announced. The 193 will operate again this year, same as recent years.
With the current detour on the Dufferin bus (see link), would the 193 southbound buses use the same detour? There is no mention of it. Likely because it is an express bus, it doesn't matter.
 

innsertnamehere

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good luck getting a 12km streetcar built. I think a goal of up to eglinton is much more reasonable as most ridership drops off after that. (people take an East-West bus to the Spadina line, instead of Dufferin down to the B-D line)
 

calimehtar

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I'm not saying it's likely, but a possible solution to the "Toronto doesn't build streetcars in mixed traffic anymore" problem would be a right of way. Dufferin is too narrow to add a right of way and maintain 2 lanes of traffic each way, but it could be paired with Bathurst - make Bathurst one way north and Dufferin one way south, eliminate street parking, and put a streetcar right of way on each up to Eglinton.
 

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