"Downtown Core Line" - Possible Alignments?

[cacruden]

Or perhaps an indicator that our aging population has mobility challenges....

Most likely because they are lazy and fat. Way too many people are using little electrical carts, zoom along, get up pick up groceries, and then zoom along - getting fatter and fatter..... If you are having mobility problems, for most people, the worst thing you can do is not do any exercise whatsoever.

And no, I am no where close to being skinny I had one year where I had to hobble along due to knee problems.

 

[Kitsune]

Take it from someone who lives South of Front: The majority of people who own a car is because of groceries and long distance driving. Quite a few dont own a car and use the TTC when its practable. Check out the streetcars along Queens Quay during rush hour: There aboustely packed. Running it on Front or South of it would do a ton for relieving the pressure on the streetcars, as well as adding a ton more potential customers who walk or take a taxi to work. Also add in the trip generator that the Skydome and if possible Exhibition would add and it just makes sense to do.

 

[toraerach]

I just walked past George Brown's St James campus this evening and I saw alot of potential ridership there. There are 4 campuses between King to the south, Queen to the North, Jarvis to the West and Sherbourne to the East. Students are captive riders who must ride public transit to get to where they have to go for cheap. Thats why the TTC wants to extend a subway to York U.

I think students are a sign of potential ridership more so then condo residents along lakeshore or the portlands who may opt out from using public transit as they can afford to use their own personal vehicles parked in their condos.

Is George Brown underserviced as it is? I haven't heard anything that would suggest that it needs a subway connection. York's situation is a lot different. If there is a problem getting to GB the best solution might be more reliable service on the 501 and 504. The DRL might be able to help with that. George Brown is also opening up a new campus on the Waterfront, so it's not like there won't be any students down there.

 

[Hipster Duck]

One option for Queen would be to build a Transit City style subway. Use underground LRT. That's much cheaper and more adequate for Queen where there's much more local ridership. The subway could then still be reserved for commuters coming in, and be located further south.

While I agree with this sort of proposal, it would be very hard to justify two parallel transit projects, even though they would both serve two very different purposes.

I think that once a DRL is in place, the 501 should be enhanced for better local service. I wonder whether placing sidewalk bulbouts on the far side of the intersection and moving the stop over there would help. Also, the TTC should consider mid-block stops, where possible. Finally, while the city is not too keen on signal priority, I wonder whether having extremely short light cycles would speed up service as it has in Zurich. I found this presentation to have some neat ideas.

 

[Darren B]

Is George Brown underserviced as it is? I haven't heard anything that would suggest that it needs a subway connection. York's situation is a lot different. If there is a problem getting to GB the best solution might be more reliable service on the 501 and 504. The DRL might be able to help with that. George Brown is also opening up a new campus on the Waterfront, so it's not like there won't be any students down there.

Well I dont think its underserviced, I was pointing out that the DRL on Queen will attract more then just ridership going to the financial core...ie there is a lot of things going on around Queen street.

 

[Darren B]

Also add in the trip generator that the Skydome and if possible Exhibition would add and it just makes sense to do.

Those locations (Rogers Centre and Ex) host events on occasions, while the Ex is a seasonal event at best. Rogers is already serviced by Union station.

 

[kEiThZ]

Well I dont think its underserviced, I was pointing out that the DRL on Queen will attract more then just ridership going to the financial core...ie there is a lot of things going on around Queen street.

And locating the line along Wellington will also attract a lot of ridership aside from those heading for the financial district. What's your point? Any line south of Queen basically will attract riders other than officer tower workers. Indeed, there'll probably be many a GB student riding the DRL regardless of alignment.

Those locations (Rogers Centre and Ex) host events on occasions, while the Ex is a seasonal event at best. Rogers is already serviced by Union station.

It's served by Union by default. But I don't think it's wise or effective to make tens of thousands of fans walk half a km to a subway station. It's bad for the city's image and it simply encourages more folks to drive to an event.

Either way, those of us who prefer a Front/Wellington alignment aren't picking it to serve the Ex or the Skydome. Those are added bonuses. We are picking it to serve the immense development along the Lakeshore. You still haven't provided any links that show any developments on Queen that beat out what Waterfront Toronto has planned along the water.

 

[Whoaccio]

You still haven't provided any links that show any developments on Queen that beat out what Waterfront Toronto has planned along the water.

Its worth at least mentioning that if the more urban areas north of the rail corridor had their zoning bylaws relaxed, local densities could quite easily shoot up. Its a bit annoying to hear of the Queen/King corridor's stagnation when everyone knows that it is, at least partially, caused by zoning laws as opposed to fundamental demand. I realize the City has taken it on itself to protect parts of the city, but they could at least allow multi-unit buildings up to 4-5 storeys in the "stable neighborhoods."

 

[JasonParis]

True enough, but regardless of zoning, there are trends in these areas like single professionals buying up large houses, small, but well-off, families taking over all of what was a sub-divided house and/or large Portugease families moving to the 'burbs to have their home taken over by a gay male professional couple.

 

[prosperegal]

True enough, but regardless of zoning, there are trends in these areas like single professionals buying up large houses, small, but well-off, families taking over all of what was a sub-divided house and/or large Portugease families moving to the 'burbs to have their home taken over by a gay male professional couple.

Are single professionals into buying large houses? Most people I know want condos/lofts. People who want larger homes generally have a kid or two and want access to good schools, rec centres, etc.

 

[golodhendil]

This type of thinking is an indicator how lazy and fat we have become.... if someone cannot walk 400m (max) to the nearest stop.... then they are not likely going to take public transit.....

.. or it can be an indicator of demand and convenience in an urban, built-up area.
Most subway stations in lower Manhattan are also no more than 3-400m apart, though that's not a perfect comparison because there are no streetcars (though there are still buses), and I guess Americans aren't particularly well known for their leanness or activeness either. In HK, the subway stations are similarly about 4-500m apart, while the tramway stops are about 150-200m. And HK people are most certainly leaner than the average North American. The girth of the society will be more dependent on many other things than the spacing of subway stops.

 

[cacruden]

I expect the spacing between stops depends greatly on how dense the area is, just like when you are on the Yonge line - downtown - they are fairly close, north of bloor they start to space out. If it becomes really, really dense along the whole line - you just build another line one street over for more express nature. Right now, Toronto is not that dense in most neighbourhoods, so I would expect only 3 - 5 stations close, and the rest have more space between stops.

 

[prosperegal]

.. or it can be an indicator of demand and convenience in an urban, built-up area.
Most subway stations in lower Manhattan are also no more than 3-400m apart, though that's not a perfect comparison because there are no streetcars (though there are still buses), and I guess Americans aren't particularly well known for their leanness or activeness either. In HK, the subway stations are similarly about 4-500m apart, while the tramway stops are about 150-200m. And HK people are most certainly leaner than the average North American. The girth of the society will be more dependent on many other things than the spacing of subway stops.

I've noticed a lot of thin people in Manhattan, more than many parts of the US, except perhaps LA. It's probably because they take public transport. Re Hong Kong: people may just LOOK leaner, but they probably aren't. Genetically, people there are smaller-framed, so they could actually be on the heavier side, when they just "look average" to non-Chinese westerners. I'm about 5'2" and weigh around 95 lb. While it LOOKS extermely thin based on numbers, I'm actually "normal thin"/slightly underweight. My weight is ~ to someone my height weighing around 100-105 lb, but with a "regular small" frame.

 

[golodhendil]

I expect the spacing between stops depends greatly on how dense the area is, just like when you are on the Yonge line - downtown - they are fairly close, north of bloor they start to space out. If it becomes really, really dense along the whole line - you just build another line one street over for more express nature. Right now, Toronto is not that dense in most neighbourhoods, so I would expect only 3 - 5 stations close, and the rest have more space between stops.

I agree, but I do believe any east-west line in downtown would warrant being built with (or at least have the capacity for) relatively denser station spacing.

I've noticed a lot of thin people in Manhattan, more than many parts of the US, except perhaps LA. It's probably because they take public transport. Re Hong Kong: people may just LOOK leaner, but they probably aren't. Genetically, people there are smaller-framed, so they could actually be on the heavier side, when they just "look average" to non-Chinese westerners. I'm about 5'2" and weigh around 95 lb. While it LOOKS extermely thin based on numbers, I'm actually "normal thin"/slightly underweight. My weight is ~ to someone my height weighing around 100-105 lb, but with a "regular small" frame.

Genetics do account for some difference, but I read somewhere that the average BMI of HK, and Chinese in general, are lower than Caucasians. Again, both genetics and environmental factors would play a role in this, but that's part of my point, that subway station spacing is probably less of a factor than many things else.

 

[Chuck]

Most subway stations in lower Manhattan are also no more than 3-400m apart, though that's not a perfect comparison because there are no streetcars (though there are still buses)....

It's not a perfect comparison because New York has express trains whereas Toronto doesn't. A typical subway trip in New York involves boarding at a local station, transferring to an express train at the first opportunity, spending 90% of your trip on an express train, then transferring back to a local train to reach your destination.

Consider traveling from lower Manhattan to 125th St on the East Side line, which spans the same distance as Union Station to Sheppard. In Toronto, there are 14 stops along the way, but in New York, there are only 8 stops. Why? Express trains. Note that the local train stops 22 times on the same trip.

There is nothing wrong with Toronto's downtown station spacing, however the Yonge subway is screaming for express trains. If that was the case, then an additional 10 midblock stations could be added between Eglinton and Finch to improve access.