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Despite what Ford says The Streetcar in Toronto is here to stay.

Eug said:
However, to ignore the fact that many people hate streetcars on busy downtown streets is foolish. Just to have a super-pro-transit stance is to miss the point of view of much of the voting public.
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But how should one deal with this hate, especially if it isn't entirely rational?

One could say that most people hate rainy days, but that doesn't mean we don't need rain to sustain plants and trees.

Similarly, even if one hates streetcars, is the option to replace them with a greater number of buses (increasing the congestion they hate in the first place) or with private automobiles (further increasing the hated congestion)?

Or should the hate of streetcars be placated with putting all existing surface transit underground, regardless of cost? Just like we could deal with the hate of rainy days by building a big transparent dome over the city and using irrigation to water the parks and backyards.
 
Asterix said:
But how should one deal with this hate, especially if it isn't entirely rational?

One could say that most people hate rainy days, but that doesn't mean we don't need rain to sustain plants and trees.

Similarly, even if one hates streetcars, is the option to replace them with a greater number of buses (increasing the congestion they hate in the first place) or with private automobiles (further increasing the hated congestion)?

Or should the hate of streetcars be placated with putting all existing surface transit underground, regardless of cost? Just like we could deal with the hate of rainy days by building a big transparent dome over the city and using irrigation to water the parks and backyards.
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Well, what might help is to ease off on the sarcastic zingers.
 
People complain about congestion, then they complain about the vehicle reducing the congestion, then they complain about the cost or inconvience of further reducing that congestion by getting those vehicles out of their way. There's no winning here. Until drivers accept that they are cause of congestion, the complaints will continue to come in.
 
GenerationW said:
Do you really expect drivers to accept that to the point of not driving anymore en masse? Good luck with that.
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Oh, absolutely not. I expect drivers will continue to clog the roads and complain about the number of other drivers, ignoring the fact they themselves are part of the problem. That's how people's brains work, and I don't see that changing any time soon, if ever. Induced demand be a harsh mistress.

I heard somewhere recently (on QI maybe) that the average speed of surface travel in London is the same now as it was in the 1800s. Moving from horses to cars made no appreciable difference in the end. We better get used to congestion...it's not going away any time soon.
 
Eug said:
However, to ignore the fact that many people hate streetcars on busy downtown streets is foolish. Just to have a super-pro-transit stance is to miss the point of view of much of the voting public.
Click to expand...

To say that hatred of "streetcars on busy downtown streets" was a central issue among Ford voters is like saying that hatred of an urban expressway system stopped dead in its tracks by Bill Davis was a central issue among Ford voters. Or that a hatred of pointy-headed modern "art" was a central issue among Ford voters (well, it was a central issue among *Dennison* voters in 1966).

The difference being that Ford *verbalized* on streetcars. The only one who dared to approximate verbalizing on the expressway issue was Rossi--and I guess re art, Sarah Thomson might have *latently* inclined in that direction. (Or at least re architecture, she'd have been more New Urbanist than GehryAlsopLibeskind by nature)
 
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Well, they do... they just do it into the air and we've been able to make their poo increasingly invisible through technology. But it's there, and we all breathe it. And the food that produces it is increasingly expensive and completely unsustainable.
 
Streetcars carry slightly more people than buses and cost slightly less to operate over the long run, so it makes sense to retain the existing network. I think that a lot of the cost effectiveness of streetcars is downplayed by the fact that you have to operate a separate technology and maintain additional track and overhead that never sees any revenue service. That said, it would make almost no sense to replace an existing bus route anywhere with a streetcar. Why bother with the expense to eek out such marginal benefits?

Anyway, I think we're quickly reaching the ceiling on how many people we can transport around our downtown core, and all the alternatives are band-aid solutions until we consider a DRL. We have really put ourselves into a tight spot: we cannot widen any roads, we cannot build any new roads, merchants refuse to get rid of on-street parking, the lack of bicycle infrastructure and factors that make bike riding perceivably unsafe (eg. helmet rules) restricts biking to a mostly under-35 demographic, most streetcar lines are at capacity, the Yonge line is over capacity and we are thinking about reducing our two one way arteries to two-way traffic. Right now our saving grace is that the thousands of new condo residents who have moved to downtown are increasingly choosing to walk to work...or drive to the 905.
 
Hipster,
I couldn't have said it better myself, I am in total agreement with your conclusions. I hope my concurrence with your posting doesn't diminish your status as a rational member because I am considered a nut by some on this forum.
 
Why would Cincinnati spend $128M to generate $1.4B of development when they could spend $2.5B to generate $2.5B of development and be world class? Subways are clearly more totally awesome.
 
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