Despite what Ford says The Streetcar in Toronto is here to stay.

[spider]

I think he's saying that the data the roads dept uses to measure volume doesn't factor-in transit very well. If their stats and targets are all based on vehicle numbers it's hard for them to to approach signal-priority effectively when it comes to buses and streetcars or car-poolers or anything else for that matter. Maybe what they need to do is incorporate TTCs GPS tracking and ridership stats into their data. If their data started treating each streetcar as 40 vehicles it would skew their stats pretty badly, enough that real signal priority would become an actual priority to them.

NO, the two jurisdictions have no interest in each others problems and never will until their common boss lowers the boom in no uncertain terms and dictates that a solution be found to a problem that neither one of them perceives.

 

[SlickFranky]

NO, the two jurisdictions have no interest in each others problems and never will until their common boss lowers the boom in no uncertain terms and dictates that a solution be found to a problem that neither one of them perceives.

I don't think that's the case. The roads dept isn't full of transit-hating automotive ideologues, it's full of people trying to get the best they can at their given task. Right now that task is to move vehicles, because that's what they deal in. A slight tweak in their mandate, an adjustment to their data, and you've accomplished this goal. No smackdown required.

 

[k10ery]

St. Clair (512) is 14.5 km/hr to 17.5 km/hr rather than 9.9 km/hr to 16.7 km/hr. And now that King is running it's full route again it's 14.2 km/hr to 17.5 km/hr.

I'm surprised they are so high. Particularly Spadina, that always feels like it's crawling. Is there some perception that it is moving slower than it is, as it's not mixed in traffic?

Don't forget these are scheduled times. Real world pokeyness can be made up through short turns, or just plain not keeping to the schedule. Even the TTC admits that the new 512 is a good bit slower than in the service summary.

 

[k10ery]

Here is the 2010 Service Summary, which has average speeds for all routes. I think it includes layovers because shorter routes tend to have lower average speeds than longer ones in similar conditions.

"The number and type of
vehicles operated on the route are listed, as well as the round-trip driving time, the total terminal
time, and the average speed of the route (driving time only, not including terminal time)."

 

[k10ery]

With this discussion of the Service Summary on the board I am surprised none of the Transfer-City people said "510 and 512 are slower than 504 or 506. So separated ROWs don't work."

But of course that would not make sense. These routes were selected for ROWs for the same reasons (high passenger volume, high car traffic, many left turns) that they are slow right now. Separation is the solution to slow routes, not the problem.

In fact, I think the Service Summary tells you how good separation can get. The 504 and 506 are about 30% faster early Sunday morning than weekday AM peak. This is the benefit of not facing traffic or delays due to high boardings. But the 510 and and 512 are only 16% faster on Sunday mornings than at peak.

The 14% difference kind of represents the advantage of ROW separation - it's the extra speed loss the non-separated routes experience when they operate in heavy traffic. It's tempting to think we could get this from separation. We could maybe even get most of the full 30% gain, if there was proper signal priority and POP.

Even 30% would only get us to about 18-19 km/h at peak, not the 22 clicks promised for Transit City. But stop spacing is wider on TC than downtown too of course.

 

[W. K. Lis]

More cities didn't get Rob Ford's memo.

Brad Thomas discusses how the Cincinnati Streetcar will create jobs, expand Cincinnati’s tax base, and make Cincinnati a better place to live. One reason given in the video is to reverse the population drop. (Why does Rob Ford want to reduce the population of Toronto, especially in the downtown?)

[video=youtube;l0w9_u9LfHY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0w9_u9LfHY[/video]

Meanwhile...

On January 19, 2011, the City of Edmonton Council approved the Southeast LRT Concept Plan. It will be different from Edmonton's current LRT in that it will use new low-floor LRV's. The system will connect the Southeast LRT line with the future West LRT line and provide opportunities for transfers to the existing LRT system in the downtown core. Low-floor technology will operate mainly at street-level and separate from traffic. Click on this link for more general information and on this link for information on the Southeast LRT (includes PDF's).

 

[Hipster Duck]

Again with the US comparisons...

Wk Lis, why do you keep on dredging these up? Who cares what Cincinnati is doing? I'm the first one to admit that Torontonians think their city is too exceptional and are unwilling to learn from other examples, but there is nothing to learn from what Cincinnati or Tempe or Tucson or Atlanta are doing: those streetcar projects are multi-million dollar white elephants that don't change travel patterns, don't attract riders and, worse, take away precious funds from bus services that serve existing communities.

Building a streetcar to reduce population drop? Yeah, downtown Toronto really needs to do something to attract people to live there - the population is just plummeting otherwise.

 

[Dan416]

For once I wholeheartedly agree with Hipster Duck. What is the world coming to, when I'd choose a Duck over a Fox.

 

[spider]

For once I wholeheartedly agree with Hipster Duck. What is the world coming to, when I'd choose a Duck over a Fox.

That Sir is discrimination, although I whole heartedly agree. Also, ducks taste better.

 

[adma]

http://www.nonstick.com/sounds/Daffy_Duck/ltdd_078.mp3

 

[drum118]

Again with the US comparisons...

Wk Lis, why do you keep on dredging these up? Who cares what Cincinnati is doing? I'm the first one to admit that Torontonians think their city is too exceptional and are unwilling to learn from other examples, but there is nothing to learn from what Cincinnati or Tempe or Tucson or Atlanta are doing: those streetcar projects are multi-million dollar white elephants that don't change travel patterns, don't attract riders and, worse, take away precious funds from bus services that serve existing communities.

Building a streetcar to reduce population drop? Yeah, downtown Toronto really needs to do something to attract people to live there - the population is just plummeting otherwise.

Are you saying Phoenix who open a 20 mile line in Dec 2009 expecting to see 12,000 the first year and 18,000 by 2020 has nothing to show Toronto today when it sees 45,000 daily, has had a number of 1 million riders months and 62% of the ridership is off Peak?? What about Minneapolis who exceeded their 15 year timeline for ridership within 6 months of opening up to the point they had to order more cars ASP? Why are they lengthening the existing platforms that are only 6 years old so they can add more cars to each trains today?

Downtown Toronto is a combination of dying and rebirth today as well being for the have people. The cost of a sq. foot to buy something in the core is ranging between $600 to $2,000 these days. How many office building have been lost or converted to condos over the past 10 years?

The have not as well business who cannot afford the prices per sq. foot are moving to other parts of the 416 other edge or the 905.

A lot of the have moving into the core as well the waterfront work in the 905 and will never use transit in the first place.

The cities you mention either don't have a real streetcar line or are in the process of building one. Use other cities that have had streetcars/LRT for some time to say they are white elephants, don't change travel pattern and attract riders. Dollar for Dollar, streetcars/LRT cost less to move riders per km than buses for most heavy travel routes.

Lets compare Calgary and Edmonton to Toronto.

 

[nfitz]

Is the Spadina line POP? I can't remember off the top of my head anymore.

Only the 501 is POP (and the 502 and 503 while on Queen; and the 508 while on Lakeshore). (though I've certainly seen 504 ALRVs sat there with all doors open and loading through all doors). It would help if Spadina was POP, and this will come with the new streetcars (as the driver won't be able to interact with the passengers). At times now when it is busy, they have staff at the busier Spadina stops checking tickets and passes as people load through the rear doors.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

More cities didn't get Rob Ford's memo.

Brad Thomas discusses how the Cincinnati Streetcar will create jobs, expand Cincinnati’s tax base, and make Cincinnati a better place to live. One reason given in the video is to reverse the population drop. (Why does Rob Ford want to reduce the population of Toronto, especially in the downtown?)

[video=youtube;l0w9_u9LfHY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0w9_u9LfHY[/video]

Meanwhile...

On January 19, 2011, the City of Edmonton Council approved the Southeast LRT Concept Plan. It will be different from Edmonton's current LRT in that it will use new low-floor LRV's. The system will connect the Southeast LRT line with the future West LRT line and provide opportunities for transfers to the existing LRT system in the downtown core. Low-floor technology will operate mainly at street-level and separate from traffic. Click on this link for more general information and on this link for information on the Southeast LRT (includes PDF's).

Cinnicinatti has 1/10'th the population of Toronto's and Edm equally is a speck comparitivly to Toronto. Why are we aiming to copy the plans of regions that are smaller than ours.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Are you saying Phoenix who open a 20 mile line in Dec 2009 expecting to see 12,000 the first year and 18,000 by 2020 has nothing to show Toronto today when it sees 45,000 daily, has had a number of 1 million riders months and 62% of the ridership is off Peak?? What about Minneapolis who exceeded their 15 year timeline for ridership within 6 months of opening up to the point they had to order more cars ASP? Why are they lengthening the existing platforms that are only 6 years old so they can add more cars to each trains today?

Downtown Toronto is a combination of dying and rebirth today as well being for the have people. The cost of a sq. foot to buy something in the core is ranging between $600 to $2,000 these days. How many office building have been lost or converted to condos over the past 10 years?

The have not as well business who cannot afford the prices per sq. foot are moving to other parts of the 416 other edge or the 905.

A lot of the have moving into the core as well the waterfront work in the 905 and will never use transit in the first place.

The cities you mention either don't have a real streetcar line or are in the process of building one. Use other cities that have had streetcars/LRT for some time to say they are white elephants, don't change travel pattern and attract riders. Dollar for Dollar, streetcars/LRT cost less to move riders per km than buses for most heavy travel routes.

Lets compare Calgary and Edmonton to Toronto.

Downtown Toronto's office vacancy rate is what? Something like 10 - 15% if that, and that is in line with the rest of the region. Most if not ALL new construction in the core has been redevelopment of empty land (parking lots abandonded sites etc), in fact the only major teardown of existing buildings that I can think off of the top of my head was in preparation for1 Bloor E. Toronto's core has ballooned so much that it is taxing the TTC which is already packed before reaching the core. Downtown residents don't bother with the TTC because it is so unreliable and the vehicles are packed. They choose to walk take a taxi or gasp just drive.

It is not the lack of Streetcars that has led to this it is the complete lack of having adequate transit to serve the region. Read, we need to upgrade the downtown routes from Streetcars to something that can handle greater passenger loads.

 

[Amy Rose]

Cinnicinatti has 1/10'th the population of Toronto's and Edm equally is a speck comparitivly to Toronto. Why are we aiming to copy the plans of regions that are smaller than ours.

So what you're saying is that unless New York unveils something similar to transit city and goes all successful and happy while ignorant people like you would like to push subways when money is scarce and Toronto becomes known as pipe dream city because of the largely envisioned subway plan