Despite what Ford says The Streetcar in Toronto is here to stay.

[Woodbridge_Heights]

So what you're saying is that unless New York unveils something similar to transit city and goes all successful and happy while ignorant people like you would like to push subways when money is scarce and Toronto becomes known as pipe dream city because of the largely envisioned subway plan

What I'm saying is that it's asinine to draw parrallels between Toronto who's population is pushing 3 million and two cities who's populations are barely 1 million each, furthermore their population densities are far far below Toronto's. What is right for them is not always going to be right for Toronto.

 

[W. K. Lis]

What I'm saying is that it's asinine to draw parrallels between Toronto who's population is pushing 3 million and two cities who's populations are barely 1 million each, furthermore their population densities are far far below Toronto's. What is right for them is not always going to be right for Toronto.

Does Brooklyn count, or only Manhattan?

City revamping plan for Brooklyn streetcar line at this link.

42nd Street as a Car-Free Light Rail Corridor at this link.

And what about the NYC suburbs, which includes New Jersey, who are expanding their light rail? See Extending Light Rail across Bayonne Bridge to Staten Island is on minds of officials on both sides of Kill Van Kull at this link.

 

[Dan416]

I think it's asinine to compare to cities that already have built-out subway systems and then they plop down a random LRT and then suddenly we can use them as an example.

 

[EnviroTO]

How about comparing how developed most subway networks are in cities of any size before a line which doesn't go near the central core is built?

 

[reaperexpress]

Again with the US comparisons...

Wk Lis, why do you keep on dredging these up? Who cares what Cincinnati is doing? I'm the first one to admit that Torontonians think their city is too exceptional and are unwilling to learn from other examples, but there is nothing to learn from what Cincinnati or Tempe or Tucson or Atlanta are doing: those streetcar projects are multi-million dollar white elephants that don't change travel patterns, don't attract riders and, worse, take away precious funds from bus services that serve existing communities.

Cinnicinatti has 1/10'th the population of Toronto's and Edm equally is a speck comparitivly to Toronto. Why are we aiming to copy the plans of regions that are smaller than ours.

I think it's asinine to compare to cities that already have built-out subway systems and then they plop down a random LRT and then suddenly we can use them as an example.

So basically, we shouldn't learn from cities that are different from ourselves in any way.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

So basically, we shouldn't learn from cities that are different from ourselves in any way.

Yes, Toronto is unique, it's not that we shouldn't learn from any randomly selected world city just because it is implementing our favorite mode of transit, it's that we need to evaluate how their plans fit into the existing Toronto framework. We earlier saw examples of how Beijing has built kms and kms of subway lines yet we realize that the same cannot be duplicated in Toronto for a number of reasons.

Yes there are places where LRT is a great fit, Finch, Queensway, Don Mills, and yes even Eglinton come to mind. However there is also a need for 1 if not 2 HRT lines through the central city.

 

[lafard]

How about comparing how developed most subway networks are in cities of any size before a line which doesn't go near the central core is built?

Like how you can't get between Queens and the Bronx without going through Manhattan?

 

[Dan416]

There've got to be cities of 2.5-5 million out there that we could learn something from, not cities of 1 million or 10 million! Like come on, how hard is it to compare apples to apples! It's just as asinine to compare Toronto to Cincinnat or Linz as it is to compare Toronto to New York City or Tokyo. I'd say better comparisons would be Boston, Chicago, or other middle-large-sized cities.

 

[nfitz]

Bizarre argument one. Cities bigger than Toronto are building LRT. That doesn't count because they are bigger so they already have more subway.

Bizarre argument two. Cities smaller than Torotno are building LRT. That doesn't count because they are smaller than Toronto, so not comparable.

The truth is that areas with lower densities such as suburban Toronto are building LRT because it's the appropriate technology where subway is not warranted. Be this London, Paris, New York, or the likes of Portland. It has nothing to do with how big the city is, or how well developed their subway system is - no matter what the NIMBYs would have you believe.

 

[Hipster Duck]

This thread isn't about LRT, it's about streetcars. Specifically those asinine ones that US B cities build that get 9,000 daily riders tops...and why that's somehow something we should aspire for.

 

[CDL.TO]

This thread isn't about LRT, it's about streetcars. Specifically those asinine ones that US B cities build that get 9,000 daily riders tops...and why that's somehow something we should aspire for.

Too much nuance, Duckster.

It sure feels like your only two options are:
A) All LRT (including streetcars) is awesome. Subways are infeasible.
B) Toronto "deserves" subways, which are better than LRTs.

Seeing that your post didn't fit under default position A), it was automatically assumed that you were arguing in support of position B).

 

[scarberiankhatru]

So basically, we shouldn't learn from cities that are different from ourselves in any way.

With ridership on surface routes as high as it is in Toronto and with so much money proposed to be spent, learning should mean more than "learning" about the existence of lines in other cities. Maybe our streetcars wouldn't be so poorly managed and our future lines so poorly planned if we didn't use the mere existence of streetcars in Cincinnati or a new tramway in Paris as the rationale behind what we do. For instance, I don't think there's a city in the world that would not have Finch continue on from Humber to Woodbine to the airport, or that there's a city in the world that would see the Richview corridor as an opportunity to completely rebuild Eglinton and run part of a $7+ billion line down the middle of the road.

 

[Jonny5]

Well the TTC drivers are doing their best to get rid of the streetcars on their own.
I witnessed a nice crash last night at Dundas and Parliament.

Two cars pulled up to the intersection. The driver in the front car decided he needed to back up a few feet, presumably because the switch was in the wrong position and he didn't notice until too late. So he got driver from the streetcar behind him to hold the pole and guide him while backing up.

There was a nice crowd watching this unfold and you could just fell that everyone was thinking the exact same thing, that this is going to go horribly wrong. And how it did!

The guy in the back started gesturing for the driver to reverse and he did, but really fast. After about two seconds he had cleared 10 feet. The guy in the back started panicking and shouting WHOA WHOA WHOA!
Too late.
SMASH.
Right into the streetcar behind.

They got lucky as there appeared to be just big dents in the cars but no broken glass.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

With ridership on surface routes as high as it is in Toronto and with so much money proposed to be spent, learning should mean more than "learning" about the existence of lines in other cities. Maybe our streetcars wouldn't be so poorly managed and our future lines so poorly planned if we didn't use the mere existence of streetcars in Cincinnati or a new tramway in Paris as the rationale behind what we do. For instance, I don't think there's a city in the world that would not have Finch continue on from Humber to Woodbine to the airport, or that there's a city in the world that would see the Richview corridor as an opportunity to completely rebuild Eglinton and run part of a $7+ billion line down the middle of the road.

QFT.

Not related to this post. However....

I hear that Boston built this giant tunnel replacing it's elevated expressway!!! Toronto should do this!!! Forget about the shoddy construction and huge cost overruns!!! Am I right? AM I RIGHT!?!? Sorry I guess blindly pointing at a random city doing something and saying we should do this only applies to LRT construction.

 

[Dan416]

Bizarre argument one. Cities bigger than Toronto are building LRT. That doesn't count because they are bigger so they already have more subway.

Bizarre argument two. Cities smaller than Torotno are building LRT. That doesn't count because they are smaller than Toronto, so not comparable.

The truth is that areas with lower densities such as suburban Toronto are building LRT because it's the appropriate technology where subway is not warranted. Be this London, Paris, New York, or the likes of Portland. It has nothing to do with how big the city is, or how well developed their subway system is - no matter what the NIMBYs would have you believe.

Your post is just a flurry of non sequiturs. Have I ever, ever written that we shouldn't build LRTs? No, so don't put words in my mouth.