Despite what Ford says The Streetcar in Toronto is here to stay.

[Chuck]

As I said in another thread, it used to matter to me that the Eglinton line be compatible with our existing subways. Having thought some more about it, I don't really care if it's LRT so long as the line is operated along the same basic principals as a subway:

- Don't leave speed up to the driver. All underground segments should be fully signaled like the subway.
- Don't let frequency be dictated by surface portions. Have spare vehicles serving the tunnels to make up the difference.
- Don't pay the driver (I think is already taken care of). Pay your fare to enter the station.
- Don't make the stations small like Queen's Quay station on the 509 route. They should be at least 75m long with raised platforms to allow for longer trains one day.

If all of this is done, I really wouldn't care if we get subway or LRT on Eglinton since the average user wouldn't see a difference. If we think small though, the line is doomed.

 

[sixrings]

I agree but would like to see Eglinton underground be extended to Jane and Don Mills.. The rest of the line would be in such suburbia that it would make sense for it to be at street level.

"@Mimmo Briganti:

This may be a rather simplistic way to solve the capacity problem on the Eglinton corridor, and there are more complicated issues I’ve forgotten, but perhaps another parallel LRT line can be planned on Lawrence. This increases the network and travel options, and the catchment area for Eglinton can be shared by the Lawrence LRT, without incorporating the operating costs of subway stations (for at grade LRT stations anyways).

"

 

[reaperexpress]

As I said in another thread, it used to matter to me that the Eglinton line be compatible with our existing subways. Having thought some more about it, I don't really care if it's LRT so long as the line is operated along the same basic principals as a subway:

- Don't leave speed up to the driver. All underground segments should be fully signaled like the subway.
- Don't let frequency be dictated by surface portions. Have spare vehicles serving the tunnels to make up the difference.
- Don't pay the driver (I think is already taken care of). Pay your fare to enter the station.
- Don't make the stations small like Queen's Quay station on the 509 route. They should be at least 75m long with raised platforms to allow for longer trains one day.

If all of this is done, I really wouldn't care if we get subway or LRT on Eglinton since the average user wouldn't see a difference. If we think small though, the line is doomed.

The good news is that in the current plan, all your conditions are met. My main operational concern about building it as LRT is that delays on the surface section (where the line has to deal with traffic lights) could affect service in the tunnel.

 

[lafard]

I've heard somewhere that the underground stretch of Eglinton will actually be ATO compatible... a number of the trains will probably short turn at the ends of the underground section and the surface trains will "enter" the ATO zone upon descending through the portal.

At any rate, I do believe that operationally they will keep many of the trains permanently underground (running a through LRT and a devoted subway on common tracks, more or less); that way even if the surface segment gets erratic the underground segment stays reasonably reliable.

 

[GenerationW]

How, I don't think we can find a dozen councillors that would support Ford's transit plan of both cancelling the new streetcars and starting to close downtown streetcar routes, and cancelling the subway section of the Eglinton RT. Here's a challenge though ... name 22 councillors you think would support it.

Find me 23 who would oppose a mayor who just won a huge mandate in a three-person race. He may also come to council with a negotiated deal with the Province and which may include a larger Federal contribution from his pal Flaherty.

 

[Asterix]

Find me 23 who would oppose a mayor who just won a huge mandate in a three-person race. He may also come to council with a negotiated deal with the Province and which may include a larger Federal contribution from his pal Flaherty.

How many wards do the existing streetcars and the Eglinton LRT line pass through?

Would Ford have a mandate to unilaterally negotiate with the province and Feds without having some kind of proposal approved by council?

 

[nfitz]

Find me 23 who would oppose a mayor who just won a huge mandate in a three-person race.

43 of 44 of the councillors would oppose the mayor if it interfered with their ward. All whose last name isn't Ford.

I think every councillor whose ward has streetcars has already spoken out against cancelling them. Even Conservatives Nunziata and Stintz have spoken out about cancelling the Eglinton LRT which goes through their wards.

The province has said that they would consider reopening plans if council votes to do so.

The feds can't promise too much without having to fund every other city in the country. I suppose they could promise to spend their $300-million for Sheppard East differently—minus how much has already been spent—if the province agrees to let them get out of the current deal.

However, it's all conjecture until Ford gives any direction; and there's little evidence that the various promises about streetcars and subways were nothing but more Ford lies that he's already backing away from.

 

[Rainforest]

He most certainly did. In fact, I clearly remember (don't ask me where he posted this, probably in the Eglinton debates on his blog) that he is against the tunnel being HRT compatible as it raises the cost.

That's true.

But the point is that he (Steve Munro) never deceived the readers (by pretending that the tunnel is subway-compatible), hence no ground to attack him.

He is a private citizen, and if he believes that the tunnel does not need to be HRT compatible, he can state his opinion.

 

[Rainforest]

It seems to me, Karl is concerned the TTC, and the City are not telling residents the truth. But that is nothing new?

His first concern is that officials are not telling the whole truth.

His second concern is that the design of Eglinton line is not optimal.

Although it is not easy to tell which design is optimal; how much of additional expenses now are justified to make enhancements cheaper in future. IMO, they should at least consider the scenario of upgrading the line to long 5-car LRT trains.

 

[Rainforest]

At any rate, I do believe that operationally they will keep many of the trains permanently underground (running a through LRT and a devoted subway on common tracks, more or less); that way even if the surface segment gets erratic the underground segment stays reasonably reliable.

This makes sense; the problem is that the underground section runs only between Laird and Black Creek. From the passenger flow standpoint, the frequent service segment should definitely stretch to Don Mills in the east, and preferably to Jane in the west. Bun then it would hit a few traffic lights. The question is, can it operate at high frequency (~ 2 min ?) despite those traffic lights, or does it have to be fully grade separate between those two points?

 

[Darwinkgo]

Find me 23 who would oppose a mayor who just won a huge mandate in a three-person race. He may also come to council with a negotiated deal with the Province and which may include a larger Federal contribution from his pal Flaherty.

Federal money doesn't come by fiat of cabinet, it is allocated from within a pool of money already allocated for Toronto. Getting more for a subway means less for other things. Be reminded that there is currently no federal contribution on transit city beyond the Sheppard East line either, so a contribution to a new subway would be no different than the expected contribution to the Eglinton Transit City line. No new money is a coming.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I'd be incredibly impressed if Ford brings his own motion to council for a revised transit plan. Impressed and surprised.

And I don't get where the idea comes from that councillors oppose Ford at their own peril. There are at least 16 wards where the local councillors are far more popular than the mayor. In many cases people voted for these councillors EXPECTING that they would oppose the mayor.

 

[lafard]

^ indeed, the downtown wards will almost definitely oppose him, and his proposal for eglinton will not make him any friends along Eglinton west of Victoria Park. Most of that's solid Ford country except right around Yonge street.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

I'd be incredibly impressed if Ford brings his own motion to council for a revised transit plan. Impressed and surprised.

And I don't get where the idea comes from that councillors oppose Ford at their own peril. There are at least 16 wards where the local councillors are far more popular than the mayor. In many cases people voted for these councillors EXPECTING that they would oppose the mayor.

Confrontation and Fragmentation at City council is the best possible scenario. It doesn't get anything done and it gives us more reason to squabble about what could have been built!

 

[nfitz]

If there is complete fragmentation, then Metrolinx can simply proceed with Transit City. The irony is that the only project there seems to be consensus on is the Spadina subway exension, which is the only project that is funded.