Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

@44 North is correct.

The fully funded LRT plan that was ready to go and 2010 (and would've been done by now) went directly from Kennedy to STC (and beyond). The Scarborough-Malvern LRT was an extension of the Eglinton Line.

These two plans are not even an apples to apples comparison as they follow completely different sets criteria. A more accurate comparison would be comparing the cost of the RT corridor subway vs the RT corridor LRT in todays $. The old $1.4B LRT value is a lowballed cost and very much out of date figure. As of now, this corridor is no longer available.

 

[Streety McCarface]

If ridership is so insignificant that you can eliminate all stops between Kennedy and STC, then there clearly isn't any sort of real planning justification for a subway.

So low that the Joke TTC maps mock the low usage at every RT station with the exception of the STC

Like I said before, they're only considering the STC at the moment because the vast majority of users of the line only take it between the STC and line 2. According to the actual statistics:

The only other station with even remotely significant ridership is Lawrence East, and there is a clear consensus here that at the very least, there should be a stop on a subway or LRT at Lawrence East.

Smarttrack is exactly what's needed for Scarborough's environment, and the best option for fast travel downtown.

Although I fully support the creation of regional rail on EVERY GO line, we still have to consider the many factors associated with choosing regional rail over the existing rapid transit. For starters, during peak times, 12 car trains on every line are packed; that's about 5000 people per train. Trying to squeeze any more people on single-level EMUs will be a challenge even with capacity upgrades along the corridor. We also must consider that regional rail building in Scarborough means LRT and upgraded RT is off the table, and as many people have pointed out before in this thread, not everyone is travelling downtown. With the existing layout, you can get from Scarborough, around parts of Scarborough (McCowan-VicPark), from Scarborough downtown, Old Toronto, and the Lakeshore area (VIA line 2), and in the future, you'll be able to get to Midtown via the Eglinton Crosstown and Uptown Via the Sheppard East LRT. Making Smarttrack the only option in Scarborough is actually extremely stupid because you can only go from certain areas of Scarborough to Pape/Gerrard, and Union Station. With this in mind, barely anyone makes this trip; the majority are heading to other areas of Toronto, this brings us to the actual time-saving element questions.

Let's consider a trip starting at the entrance of a Regional Rail station and a Rapid Transit station along Ellesmere. For the regional rail, assuming 15-minute frequencies, we'll say the wait time is about 7 minutes. For the subway, since Ellesmere would be the terminus, we can assume 1-2 minutes entering the station and 1-2 minutes waiting. This equates to 3 minutes of wait time. Now, let's consider trip times. For the regional rail, an existing trip between Kennedy is 20-25 minutes. With the addition of new stations along the route, we'll use 25 minutes, plus 5 minutes for the transit time between Kennedy and Ellesmere, and dwell time at Lawrence East station, bringing Regional Rail transit time at 37 minutes. An existing subway trip between Kennedy and Union takes about 35 minutes, plus the 7 minutes between Ellesmere and Kennedy, that brings transit time to 42 minutes, and a net travel time of 45 minutes. Although it seems as though the regional rail wins by 7 minutes, we're not finished yet. This is only Union station. What about a student that is going from Ellesmere to U of T? or a shopper going to the Eaton Centre? Net travel times are 30 minutes and 36 minutes respectively. For regional rail, we must factor in the convoluted transfer at Union Station (5 minutes), as well as subway transit time (6 minutes and 5 minutes respectively). In total, these trips would take 48 and 47 minutes respectively. These are differences of up to 18 minutes. The majority of commuters heading to Union from Scarborough already use GO. Now we must ask ourselves if regional rail is really a feasible alternative for everyone else.

I understand why not supporting the subway is politically unfeasible at the moment, but suggesting that people are disenfranchised because they have to use the RT is ridiculous.

Having the RT is a tremendous privilege, one that other suburban nodes in the city don't have the benefit of.

Are the residents of the Sherway area disenfranchised because they don't have a subway nor LRT?

If one truly cares about building transit for Scarborough's future, this one stop plan is the worst option on the table.

Sherway is really close to Kipling station, and they have the 501, and they're getting the Waterfront East LRT and maybe a BD extension in a few decades. Jane and Finch is getting 2 LRTs in the future. What other areas of the city will be so disenfranchised from transit in the future?

 

[pman]

So low that the Joke TTC maps mock the low usage at every RT station with the exception of the STC

View attachment 135247
Like I said before, they're only considering the STC at the moment because the vast majority of users of the line only take it between the STC and line 2. According to the actual statistics:View attachment 135248
The only other station with even remotely significant ridership is Lawrence East, and there is a clear consensus here that at the very least, there should be a stop on a subway or LRT at Lawrence East.


Although I fully support the creation of regional rail on EVERY GO line, we still have to consider the many factors associated with choosing regional rail over the existing rapid transit. For starters, during peak times, 12 car trains on every line are packed; that's about 5000 people per train. Trying to squeeze any more people on single-level EMUs will be a challenge even with capacity upgrades along the corridor. We also must consider that regional rail building in Scarborough means LRT and upgraded RT is off the table, and as many people have pointed out before in this thread, not everyone is travelling downtown. With the existing layout, you can get from Scarborough, around parts of Scarborough (McCowan-VicPark), from Scarborough downtown, Old Toronto, and the Lakeshore area (VIA line 2), and in the future, you'll be able to get to Midtown via the Eglinton Crosstown and Uptown Via the Sheppard East LRT. Making Smarttrack the only option in Scarborough is actually extremely stupid because you can only go from certain areas of Scarborough to Pape/Gerrard, and Union Station. With this in mind, barely anyone makes this trip; the majority are heading to other areas of Toronto, this brings us to the actual time-saving element questions.

Let's consider a trip starting at the entrance of a Regional Rail station and a Rapid Transit station along Ellesmere. For the regional rail, assuming 15-minute frequencies, we'll say the wait time is about 7 minutes. For the subway, since Ellesmere would be the terminus, we can assume 1-2 minutes entering the station and 1-2 minutes waiting. This equates to 3 minutes of wait time. Now, let's consider trip times. For the regional rail, an existing trip between Kennedy is 20-25 minutes. With the addition of new stations along the route, we'll use 25 minutes, plus 5 minutes for the transit time between Kennedy and Ellesmere, and dwell time at Lawrence East station, bringing Regional Rail transit time at 37 minutes. An existing subway trip between Kennedy and Union takes about 35 minutes, plus the 7 minutes between Ellesmere and Kennedy, that brings transit time to 42 minutes, and a net travel time of 45 minutes. Although it seems as though the regional rail wins by 7 minutes, we're not finished yet. This is only Union station. What about a student that is going from Ellesmere to U of T? or a shopper going to the Eaton Centre? Net travel times are 30 minutes and 36 minutes respectively. For regional rail, we must factor in the convoluted transfer at Union Station (5 minutes), as well as subway transit time (6 minutes and 5 minutes respectively). In total, these trips would take 48 and 47 minutes respectively. These are differences of up to 18 minutes. The majority of commuters heading to Union from Scarborough already use GO. Now we must ask ourselves if regional rail is really a feasible alternative for everyone else.



Sherway is really close to Kipling station, and they have the 501, and they're getting the Waterfront East LRT and maybe a BD extension in a few decades. Jane and Finch is getting 2 LRTs in the future. What other areas of the city will be so disenfranchised from transit in the future?

Areas so disenfranchised from transit you ask? How about anyone who has to take the Queen streetcar? True, they’re next to a streetcar line, but between short turns, bunching, incomprehensible delays and a schedule that seems to be based on geological time, their commute is a mess. What about the residents of Liberty Village? The neighbourhood has had a huge influx of condos with zero transit improvement, unless you count the down the line King Car pilot, but King isn’t exactly convenient for them to access in the first place. How about anyone, absolutely anyone, who has to change from Line 1 to Line 2 at Yonge-Bloor in rush hour? Or - cue the suburban class war - North Rosedale, where I live. When I worked downtown years ago I gave up taking the TTC because after transferring from a 20-minute bus to the Rosedale station, I had so much trouble boarding southbound trains. This constant whining about Scarborough’s special victimization is absolute bullshit. Most of the City is “disenfranchised” on transit. It doesn’t mean that we should throw data-driven allocation of our scarce and inadequate resources out the window.

 

[syn]

Areas so disenfranchised from transit you ask? How about anyone who has to take the Queen streetcar? True, they’re next to a streetcar line, but between short turns, bunching, incomprehensible delays and a schedule that seems to be based on geological time, their commute is a mess. What about the residents of Liberty Village? The neighbourhood has had a huge influx of condos with zero transit improvement, unless you count the down the line King Car pilot, but King isn’t exactly convenient for them to access in the first place. How about anyone, absolutely anyone, who has to change from Line 1 to Line 2 at Yonge-Bloor in rush hour? Or - cue the suburban class war - North Rosedale, where I live. When I worked downtown years ago I gave up taking the TTC because after transferring from a 20-minute bus to the Rosedale station, I had so much trouble boarding southbound trains. This constant whining about Scarborough’s special victimization is absolute bullshit. Most of the City is “disenfranchised” on transit. It doesn’t mean that we should throw data-driven allocation of our scarce and inadequate resources out the window.

Exactly.

RT riders actually have one of the best experiences on the TTC. Taking the RT during rush hour is far preferable to waiting for 2 or 3 trains at a jam-packed Yonge Line station.

People who complain about the oppression of Scarborough transit riders seem completely oblivious to the difficulties faced by transit riders across the city. One of the worst parts of the SSE plan is that the rest of the city is being forced to pay for colossal planning mistake. The location the 'City Centre' is great for an auto-oriented suburb, but lousy for higher order transit.

It really would be great to see Scarborough separate and be forced to come up with sensible planning solutions.

 

[Rainforest]

Obviously, SSE will make it much easier to travel between Scarborough and other parts of the city: downtown, Yonge corridor, west end, even York U area.

Regarding trips within Scarborough, SSE will not help them, and will not make them worse either. Most of such trips are handled by local transit, both in Scarborough and in other parts of the city.

Does TYSSE improve local trips within the western North York? Does the west of end of the Bloor line serve local trips in Etobicoke? Nope.

The north end of Yonge line is very well used, but is it used for local trips? Nope, mostly it carries the riders between North York and places further apart. Local trips are served by the bus grid.

Therefore, it is totally ridiculous to complain that SSE isn't designed to improve local trips. That's not the job of a trunk transit line.

Imagine that we built a short ICTS line between Kipling and Sherway, and then reshuffled the bus routes in the southern Etobicoke in such a way that half of them feeds into Sherway. Riders of those routes would have to transfer to ICTS at Sherway, then transfer again to subway at Kipling. What a dumb model.

And yet, some people think that a similar model is good for Scarborough. "SRT works well." No it doesn't.

 

[Rainforest]

Another interesting question: can SmartTrack substitute SSE?

In theory, it could. We would need:
- A better frequency
- A spur off the Uxbridge sub, connecting directly to STC.

If those options were evaluated, they would likely do the job, and likely have a better cost-benefit ratio than SSE.

However, the city made no effort to study "SmartSpur" to date.

In this situation, attempts to use that pie-in-the-sky alternative as an excuse to stop the funded and designed SSE are plain ridiculous.

 

[Rainforest]

It really would be great to see Scarborough separate and be forced to come up with sensible planning solutions.

Talk to the provincial government. If they agree, Scarborough won't object to separation.

Btw, Vaughan isn't part of Toronto, and yet got a subway to their city centre that doesn't even exist yet. Be careful with your wishes.

 

[crs1026]

Are the residents of the Sherway area disenfranchised because they don't have a subway nor LRT?

They have Nordstrom’s. And valet parking.

Scarborough’s transit needs are a different kettle of fish altogether. You have large numbers of people over wide areas needing to travel any number of places (potentially right across Scarborough, or further). The point is, the one stop won’t intersect with their travel needs, so even with it they remain disenfranchised. The options remain, replace the one stop with something more far flung for the same pricetag, or add additional routes and watch the price rise.

- Paul

 

[jaybe]

Sherway is really close to Kipling station, and they have the 501, and they're getting the Waterfront East LRT and maybe a BD extension in a few decades. Jane and Finch is getting 2 LRTs in the future. What other areas of the city will be so disenfranchised from transit in the future?

Distances from Yonge & Bloor:
Kipling Station is 12.8km
Kennedy & Eglinton is about 13km

Sherway Gardens - about 16.6km
Square One Mississauga - 24km

Scarborough Town Center - 19km

Scarborough Town Center is a long ways from downtown Toronto. That is the reason why a lot of commuters don't live in Scarborough and work downtown. For Scarberians living north of the 401, more commute north to Markham than downtown. Based on the density and travel patterns, the best transit solution for Scarborough involves moving people effectively across the borough and providing connections to the core via RER. Scarborough residents will have a much better transit experience with a network that includes LRT, BRT and RER (Smart track).

My biggest issue with the SSE is that it serves some riders well but it doesn't build out the transit network in Scarborough. It is the wrong use of limited transit funds.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Just me being curious, but what would it have cost to build a streetcar ROW along Eglinton, Danforth, McCowan, and Progress/Borough/Triton Loop? Compared to the original cost of the SRT to McCowan, would it have been a suitable interim solution to building the subway extension in the "future"/present?

 

[Sakraycore]

Obviously, SSE will make it much easier to travel between Scarborough and other parts of the city: downtown, Yonge corridor, west end, even York U area.

Regarding trips within Scarborough, SSE will not help them, and will not make them worse either. Most of such trips are handled by local transit, both in Scarborough and in other parts of the city.

Does TYSSE improve local trips within the western North York? Does the west of end of the Bloor line serve local trips in Etobicoke? Nope.

The north end of Yonge line is very well used, but is it used for local trips? Nope, mostly it carries the riders between North York and places further apart. Local trips are served by the bus grid.

Therefore, it is totally ridiculous to complain that SSE isn't designed to improve local trips. That's not the job of a trunk transit line.

Imagine that we built a short ICTS line between Kipling and Sherway, and then reshuffled the bus routes in the southern Etobicoke in such a way that half of them feeds into Sherway. Riders of those routes would have to transfer to ICTS at Sherway, then transfer again to subway at Kipling. What a dumb model.

And yet, some people think that a similar model is good for Scarborough. "SRT works well." No it doesn't.

Yes if our buses went directly to Kennedy, eliminating one transfer, I think more people would be more okay with SSE gone. But as is, half of our buses go to STC so I guess at least half of Scarborough will benefit from SSE.

Also, now that York U (even though it's in the middle of nowhere) has its own subway station, I think it's time UTSC gets its own subway station as well...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Also, now that York U (even though it's in the middle of nowhere) has its own subway station, I think it's time UTSC gets its own subway station as well...

As someone that attended UTSC for several years, I can assure you that, although I continue to desire enhanced transit connections for the campus, this is just about the last place in Toronto that needs a subway connection.

 

[Leo_Chan]

As someone that attended UTSC for several years, I can assure you that, although I continue to desire enhanced transit connections for the campus, this is just about the last place in Toronto that needs a subway connection.

I totally agree. LRT that stops a lights (with some signal priority) is already kind of overkill. The Durham BRT on Ellesmere to STC (with the SSE and fare integration) will already be adequate. The Eglinton East LRT is just an upgrade to the 198 Rocket and continuation with the Crosstown.

 

[OneCity]

I totally agree. LRT that stops a lights (with some signal priority) is already kind of overkill. The Durham BRT on Ellesmere to STC (with the SSE and fare integration) will already be adequate. The Eglinton East LRT is just an upgrade to the 198 Rocket and continuation with the Crosstown.

The Scar-Durham BRT and subway combo from SCC is great for access from both sides of the UTSC. The Eglinton East LRT provides reliability for local commuters, especially the priority neighborhoods that will be able to reliably access UTSC and the Pan-am Centre.

Agree no subway is ever needed to UTSC and it will never even be considered. Some who want to kill the SSE often try to pit the importance of improved access from the City Centre-Downtown and put greater importance of improved local network. Both are very important individually, the SSE and Eglinton East LRT are the right starting points to build off of for the long term. Unfortunately the SSE could have been built much cheaper but too much time wasted on a transfer plan and now cant with Smarttrack in play. Smarttrack will provide a great layer of redundancy from the Central Scarborough to Downtown so I can also appreciate the long term benefit as well. Its not perfect but its a pretty damn effective overall plan. Time to move forward.

 

[Leo_Chan]

It is at moments like this where I wish this forum had a like and dislike button. However, I do see having a dislike button be a negative as it would not spur counter discussions and threads will just become a voting contest of single line ideas.