Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Sakraycore]

That wouldn't work without the Relief Line to Sheppard, since it would force riders to use Line 4 -> Line 1 instead of Line 2 -> Line 1, which will put more people on Line 1 and those to would have not used Line 1 (destination on Line 2) would need to double transfer Line 4 -> Line 1 -> Line 2.

As a side note, I've always wondered why anyone would want to take Line 2 then transfer to Line 1 to get to downtown if the Relief Line went up to Sheppard. What I would do if I was at STC would be to take the 95 York Mills/Ellesmere to Don Mills, then transfer to Line 3 (DRL) to downtown. It would be even better if it was the 95E bus. The Relief Line will (should) have less stops than both Line 1 and Line 2, which would allow for a faster trip. Of course, this is assuming there's no interlining of trains from Line 2 to Line 3 and vice versa. Please correct me if my perspective on time is in the wrong place

STC right now is THE hub in Scarborough. For example, the bus stop right next to my house (like 1 minute walk) is 134 and it terminates at STC. So at that point you might as well take line 2 since there is nothing else you could take that makes sense.

 

[jaybe]

Not only have voters been promised a subway to SCC, we now have developers going back in with large proposals at SCC based on the subway. Most have been holding back because of the transit. Would this now result in law suits on the City if cancelled? Likely.

Not likely at all. The City has not made any commitments directly to a developer. The City has no direct liability. Any plans to develop near the SCC must include a risk factor associated with changes to Transit plans.

 

[OneCity]

Not likely at all. The City has not made any commitments directly to a developer. The City has no direct liability. Any plans to develop near the SCC must include a risk factor associated with changes to Transit plans.

Inevitably we'll likely never see this happen but the fact the developers are comfortable enough to start investing is another reason it's absurd to go backward at this stage.

 

[OneCity]

That wouldn't work without the Relief Line to Sheppard, since it would force riders to use Line 4 -> Line 1 instead of Line 2 -> Line 1, which will put more people on Line 1 and those to would have not used Line 1 (destination on Line 2) would need to double transfer Line 4 -> Line 1 -> Line 2.

As a side note, I've always wondered why anyone would want to take Line 2 then transfer to Line 1 to get to downtown if the Relief Line went up to Sheppard. What I would do if I was at STC would be to take the 95 York Mills/Ellesmere to Don Mills, then transfer to Line 3 (DRL) to downtown. It would be even better if it was the 95E bus. The Relief Line will (should) have less stops than both Line 1 and Line 2, which would allow for a faster trip. Of course, this is assuming there's no interlining of trains from Line 2 to Line 3 and vice versa. Please correct me if my perspective on time is in the wrong place

Subway to Kennedy, Crosstown Eglinton DRL stop would likely be more reliable.

If SmartTrack does come to Lawrence Scarborough's access to the TOCore has been completely changed and a solid level redundancy during major delays.

 

[OneCity]

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/con...way-its-a-vision-for-scarboroughs-future.html


It’s not just a subway, it’s a vision for Scarborough’s future

"The war that has been launched on the Scarborough subway extension is destructive and unfair. Critics of the extension consistently fail to mention that it is the cornerstone project within a larger network proposal for Scarborough."

 

[syn]

Yet another lie. It looks like there's a very high chance that the LRT will have to shut down for at least a year.

Scarborough RT could be shut down for 'at least a year', internal documents reveal

 

[OneCity]

Yet another lie. It looks like there's a very high chance that the LRT will have to shut down for at least a year.

Scarborough RT could be shut down for 'at least a year', internal documents reveal

Lie? Compared to how many years of shutdown with the transfer LRT this is minor? Surely, they will do whatever they can to keep it running during construction and what they cant will be very short term pain for long term gain.

 

[salsa]

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/con...way-its-a-vision-for-scarboroughs-future.html


It’s not just a subway, it’s a vision for Scarborough’s future

"The war that has been launched on the Scarborough subway extension is destructive and unfair. Critics of the extension consistently fail to mention that it is the cornerstone project within a larger network proposal for Scarborough."

OneCity is writing articles for the Star now?

 

[OneCity]

https://www.blogto.com/city/2018/02...oronto/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Reports of Scarborough RT shutting down aren't true says Metrolinx

"Rumours of a year-long subway service shutdown in Scarborough have been greatly exaggerated, according to Metrolinx."

 

[narduch]

This is just to soften the blow when its eventually shut down 2-3 years.

 

[salsa]

https://www.blogto.com/city/2018/02...oronto/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Reports of Scarborough RT shutting down aren't true says Metrolinx

"Rumours of a year-long subway service shutdown in Scarborough have been greatly exaggerated, according to Metrolinx."

It took a freedom of information request to make the public aware of these discussions that were happening for many months now, which again highlights the lack of transparency from the mayor's office and Metrolinx. Only now we are finding out about this.

A spokesperson later responded to the above, but her answer also makes me question the validity of another claim: that SmartTrack and the SRT replacement can't fit in the same corridor. Again, I don't think they are telling the public everything that they know.

 

[salsa]

Also, take a look at this amazing piece of shoddy Blog TO journalism.

You'd have to go pretty deep into Rebel media territory to find such a garbage twitter account like this, and then just insert it into the middle of the article for no reason. Why?

https://twitter.com/Drissdan

 

[Streety McCarface]

Also, take a look at this amazing piece of shoddy Blog TO journalism.


View attachment 134738


You'd have to go pretty deep into Rebel media territory to find such a garbage twitter account like this, and then just insert it into the middle of the article for no reason. Why?



View attachment 134739
https://twitter.com/Drissdan

If you consider BlogTO "Journalism" than you need to get your head checked. It's nothing more than hipster food hype.

 

[Cobra]

Actually, you're misleading people. The end result is that Metrolinx and City Council saved the Eglinton LRT, which fortunately was far enough along that we didn't have yet another transit line on Eglinton canceled.

I think you're confused. Eglinton never needed saving. He just wanted it fully underground. Mcguinty went along with. Even Metrolinx pitched elevating the east portion at some point, which unfortunately, Ford should have took. The only thing council did was to put the east at grade, which is idiotic at major intersections.

The end result is complete inertia on the transit file.

The province also had it's own agenda here. You're conveniently minimizing how much they went along with his plan except on Sheppard. The province had butchered so much of Transit City that even Miller got mad publicly.

If Ford had not interfered, the LRT to STC would've been nearly done, with the Crosstown East extension already a reality, instead of being completely unfunded due to the ballooning cost of the foolish SSE proposal.

Or the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown would have opened in 2021 and we wouldn't be spending $1B+ on SSE...money that could have financed a BRT on Crosstown East, Finch and Sheppard East (foundation for a future LRT). You're refusing to admit that merging SRT & Eglinton would have gave you exactly what you wanted for the SRT.

Ford major mistake was to turn down a proposal to elevate Eglinton East instead of burying it, which would have freed cash for other projects. Don't you find it fascinating that Metrolinx wants to grade separate Crosstown West stops? Seems like even they knew that 100% at grade service east of Laird made little sense and somewhat unsafe. The stops in the east needed at the very least to be separated from traffic.

There was certainly room for an in-between. Council and LRT purists wanted Transit City or nothing while Ford and subway purists wanted underground or nothing but he did compromise on the SRT. The tragedy of it all is that the better solution was always in-between. Who's right or wrong is getting irrelevant, everyone was wrong.

Eglinton is buried where it needs to be buried - that has absolutely nothing to do with Ford.

Eglinton needed to be 100% grade separated. LRT purists wanted as much at-grade transit as possible while subway purists wanted everything buried. Both sides were wrong. Eglinton needed to be buried where it made sense but the rest needed to be grade-separated. Ford accepted at first that the SRT to remain elevated but wouldn't entertain the idea for Kennedy to Don Mills. That's his mistake. LRT purists mistake was to not even remotely explore the merits of grade-separating the whole line by using a combination of elevation, underground where needed and separating the line from major intersections (the bare minimum).

Turning down $2 billion in additional transit dollars that could've been reallocated to something that mattered was incredibly stupid and shortsighted - two words that define the Ford era.

I knew of Metrolinx pitching elevated LRT east the underground but $2B towards Sheppard? I'll need a better source than that.

 

[BurlOak]

Ford major mistake was to turn down a proposal to elevate Eglinton East instead of burying it, which would have freed cash for other projects. Don't you find it fascinating that Metrolinx wants to grade separate Crosstown West stops? Seems like even they knew that 100% at grade service east of Laird made little sense and somewhat unsafe. The stops in the east needed at the very least to be separated from traffic.

My understanding was the Fords only requirement was that transit should not interfere with cars (which also meant that cars should not interfere with transit.

I could find no evidence that Ford killed the elevated plan. Here an article (and another) where it says that

The new mayor says he doesn’t want light rail tracks impeding cars on Toronto streets.
. . . .
Although Ford has pledged to take transit underground, there are signs he might accept underground LRT, such as that planned for about 10 kilometres on Eglinton, as an alternative to subways.

It appears clear that Soberman was against it - and I think he had sway.

Elevated light rail was considered for the east and west ends of Eglinton, where there was less development before 1975, said consultant Richard Soberman.

“Generally speaking, you would expect the cost of elevated construction to be less but the visual intrusion is much greater
. . . .
Nevertheless, Soberman thinks community opposition could make elevated LRT a non-starter in Toronto.

The key phrase to me is

Ms. Stintz said she expects to see a revised plan, with various options, by the end of January.

This was from a December 20 article. What happened to those options? I imagine a smart FOI at the time would have revealed a lot, as would a change in government back in 2011.
From what I have read Metrolinx supported the grade separated Eglinton and TTC did not. Once Metrolinx (i.e. provincial Liberals) realized that Ford was in trouble they changed their preference back to at-grade to ensure the failure of Ford. (Then 6 months later they realized their electoral success was in doubt, and they couldn't go back to the Eglinton plan, so they went with the SSE, which was on TTC radar).