Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

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If election results are being interpreted as an iron-clad judgement on subways vs LRTs, should we also assume Scarborough residents are in favour of bigotry and deceit?

The election said so, apparently.

Amazing the most culturally diverse areas of the City voted for the guy. Tory is the opposite in term of being a politically correct talking "suit" and has almost as much support here. Politics over everything when this level of apathy exists.

What is iron Clad is 95% support for Scarborough Politicians supporting the subway that extends over a heavily populated massive area of the City. Two straight Mayoral elections with the topic as a major part of the platform and the SSE supporting Mayors running away and moreso in Scarborough with both Tory and Ford. But we have outside Politicians and the their media friends still determined to push transfer LRT instead of attempting to respect the people of Scarborough and even try to do better. If it was 100% Scarborough Politician support the Citys outside far Left would still make up reasons to convince their base its a good fight to dictate these transfers upon Scarborough instead of using that time to review alternatives and try to work with he people when its clear their is a problem with the LRT plan

Nothing to with bigotry or personal character flaws Its all about the politics and respect for peoples rights. Fords are who they are personally but they didn't create the divide, they just tapped into what others already created.

 

[Rainforest]

If election results are being interpreted as an iron-clad judgement on subways vs LRTs, should we also assume Scarborough residents are in favour of bigotry and deceit?

The election said so, apparently.

Now your hatred of Scarberians really shows.

 

[Rainforest]

Not necessarily. Opinion polls can be conducted in a neutral wording, with randomized order of question responses. I am sure it has been done, but I don't feel like going through the exact polling questions of every Scarborough transit poll conducted to prove this point.

Opinion polls should be conducted with neutral wording; however, there is no way to force organizations that conduct such polls to behave professionally. I've seen a poll on the topic at hand that was definitely skewed.

Let's hope they will improve.

Neither would I want to cede planners the sole authority. I am aware of history, especially the Spadina Expressway.

You are not seeing the point though. BurlOak described it here: [...]

I respect BurlOak's opinion, but don't agree in this particular case (I think that a combined SLRT - Eglinton line would cause substantial bottlenecks).

The question is not about whether the public should cede sole authority to planners. They are clearly involved in setting the priority for building rapid transit in Scarborough, as opposed to say, a new expressway.

The issue though is that the debate on technology - LRT or subway - is not a public question. It is an academic/professional question. The public does not have the knowledge or formal education to make an informed decision on what type of technology to use. This is the point in the decision making process where we begin to defer to planners as to which option makes the most rational sense utilizing ridership data, travel time, transit coverage, connectivity, expansion opportunity, environmental impacts, city-building desires, and above all else - cost.

Not listening to planners gets us to $5 billion, 6km, 1-stop subways.

The subway is $3.5 billion.Perhaps it would be $5 billion if the Lawrence East and Sheppard / McCowan stations were restored.

More importantly, I can't agree that the debate is on technology. As far as the general public is concerned, the debate is about the routes, transfer points, and travel times. An average person has enough common sense to estimate how the proposed changes will affect their transit trips; no special education is required for that.

There are two problems with shifting the ultimate decisions into the hands of planners. First of all, question "who foots the bill" remains in place. The public is still paying through the taxes. Even in cases where the public is wrong and the planners are right, ignoring the public preferences may not be a wise strategy. They will respond with anti-taxation voting in general elections, always supporting a party that promises to cut the taxes and get funding for public projects out of thin air.

Secondly, planners are surely better educated but that doesn't make them immune to biases. Sometimes they yield to the demands of relatively small but vocal groups who believe their ideology-based agenda promotes greater good, while in fact it doesn't. For example, local density and service to priority neighborhoods are in fashion these days, while travel times and network connectivity take a back seat. Ten years later, who knows what what will become fashionable. It's not evident that biases of the planners are less harmful than biases of the general public.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

More importantly, I can't agree that the debate is on technology. As far as the general public is concerned, the debate is about the routes, transfer points, and travel times. An average person has enough common sense to estimate how the proposed changes will affect their transit trips; no special education is required for that.

I think you're greatly overestimating how educated the average person is on the various transit proposals in the city.

 

[sixrings]

They're educated voters when they agree with you but people with biases when they don't.

 

[syn]

Now your hatred of Scarberians really shows.

Ah, I see. When it supports a result you want, it's valid, when it doesn't, it's 'hatred'.

 

[Rainforest]

They're educated voters when they agree with you but people with biases when they don't.

Sorry, where did you read that?

 

[Rainforest]

Ah, I see. When it supports a result you want, it's valid, when it doesn't, it's 'hatred'.

Your rude remarks regarding 600,000 residents of Scarborough can't be excused in any case.

I never said what you claim. Your are purposefully and maliciously twisting my words and you know that.

 

[Rainforest]

I think you're greatly overestimating how educated the average person is on the various transit proposals in the city.

I think my statement is correct, "An average person has enough common sense to estimate how the proposed changes will affect their transit trips; no special education is required for that." But I realize that not everyone takes the time to go through the details and evaluate those proposals, even amongst the residents of the areas directly affected by the change.

"Has enough common sense" isn't same as "actually took time to research the facts".

 

[jcam]

Politicians made it about technology by demonizing LRT. But you're right, the technology debate should be out of the hands of the public AND politicians....it should simply come down to value for money.

X corridor requires higher order transit. Politicians approve higher-order transit for X corridor.

X corridor will require Y passenger capacity.

Z (versus A or B) technology option optimally delivers Y capacity over its lifecycle at the lowest cost to the taxpayer.

I'm just waiting for a politician to be honest about that...I'd knock on doors for their campaign in a heartbeat. That's how you ensure your sparse transit dollars are distributed across the City.

 

[jaybe]

And to add the MPP of basically that same ward of the lonely councilor who opposes the SSE came in after as the "Subway Champion" to win that ward.



LOL. Ford didn't simplify it as much as it was really that simple and painfully obvious to Scarborough residents. The double standard and poor transfer placement just handn't been called out since Miler choose to ignore Scarborough councils initial request at the start of his first term. Transfers where there simple shouldn't be transfers. It was over immediately after it was called out. The Province knew the gig was up, and yet the opposition still thinks the cat isn't out of the bag and they can dictate over an overwhelming landslide of democracy in a massive City suburb. Complete disrespect.

Ford also compromised to integrate the LRT. Much more than the opposition has done for the people of Scarborough. Between the Opposition, Tory's Smarttrack and Keesmats final touches they have driven it to one stop. Which is the real shame.



I agree many people don't want the 1 stop. I don't want it as "the" subway plan. But you are in the deep minority that wants transfer LRT . Surely the Star will always tickle your hopes until the subway is built but any transfer plan before SCC is not even a remote reality, nor has it been since it was called out. Better to push for stops to the subway and move on. Guaranteed that's what most in Scarborough will vote for and guaranteed that's will be front and centre in DoFo's platform. Because simply that what the people want.

You believe that Scarborough residents would rather have a one-stop subway to STC rather than a 7 stop LRT from Kennedy to Malvern on a dedicated right of way.

That is the problem. ROFO sold the Subway plan and got elected on emotion. "Scarborough deserves to be treated better. Scarborough deserves Subways!" If ROFO had focused on improving the LRT transfer placement he wouldn't have earned as many votes. Never mind that thousands more Scarberians would experience significantly improved transit, with multiple stops in Scarborough City Center vs the one-stop Subway. Instead ROFO sold Scarberians the idea of Subways vs streetcars. It was a lie but RoFo, like Donald Trump, was getting way too much air time. ROFO's misinformation won the day.

The problem is poor communication. I believe most Scarberians don't truly understand the LRT option as a dedicated right of way.

 

[jaybe]

More importantly, I can't agree that the debate is on technology. As far as the general public is concerned, the debate is about the routes, transfer points, and travel times. An average person has enough common sense to estimate how the proposed changes will affect their transit trips; no special education is required for that.

There is an expression in IT that applies here: Garbage in, garbage out. Residents were fed so much BS from ROFO that they were comparing a Subway with a street car. Of course, a subway was preferred because a street car (as ROFO positioned the LRT) would provide no better service than their current bus ride.

 

[syn]

Your rude remarks regarding 600,000 residents of Scarborough can't be excused in any case.

I never said what you claim. Your are purposefully and maliciously twisting my words and you know that.

What rude remarks?

I asked a question.

You claimed:

"Even though elections aren't a perfect way to evaluate the public opinion on transit options, it is still the best bet."

Why wouldn't it be safe to assume that an election is the best way to judge the integrity and tolerance for bigotry of a certain area of the city?

They did vote for a proud bigot, afterall.

You want the election to mean something when you feel it supports what you want, then you throw that line of reasoning out the window when the conclusion isn't something you find favourable.

Perhaps that should tell you something...

 

[syn]

You believe that Scarborough residents would rather have a one-stop subway to STC rather than a 7 stop LRT from Kennedy to Malvern on a dedicated right of way.

That is the problem. ROFO sold the Subway plan and got elected on emotion. "Scarborough deserves to be treated better. Scarborough deserves Subways!" If ROFO had focused on improving the LRT transfer placement he wouldn't have earned as many votes. Never mind that thousands more Scarberians would experience significantly improved transit, with multiple stops in Scarborough City Center vs the one-stop Subway. Instead ROFO sold Scarberians the idea of Subways vs streetcars. It was a lie but RoFo, like Donald Trump, was getting way too much air time. ROFO's misinformation won the day.

The problem is poor communication. I believe most Scarberians don't truly understand the LRT option as a dedicated right of way.

Here's the thing - people in Scarborough do support the LRT (or did at one point):

Even in Scarborough, the majority of decided respondents — 56 per cent — backed the LRT, compared to 44 per cent who wanted a subway.

The survey by Forum Research Inc. found that 42 per cent of Scarborough respondents said the cancelled seven-stop LRT would be the better option, compared to 37 per cent who backed the one-stop subway extension the city is building.

Obviously certain people will dismiss these results as they don't align with what they'd like to believe, but the idea that Scarborough doesn't support the LRT (or didn't) is false.

 

[Sakraycore]

There is an expression in IT that applies here: Garbage in, garbage out. Residents were fed so much BS from ROFO that they were comparing a Subway with a street car. Of course, a subway was preferred because a street car (as ROFO positioned the LRT) would provide no better service than their current bus ride.

The waterfront LRT has made driving on the same road a complete nightmare. The LRT itself offers a pretty good experience, but you're trading too much to get that experience. At least in that respect, then yea, it is a "streetcar" except even worse.