Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[pstogios]

My description is accurate, despite you thinking otherwise.

I didnt think it. I presented the facts. You’re the one that twists the facts.

I never said TTC is wealthy. I said the City is reach, and you can't deny that.

If the City starves its transit system of funding, that's a policy problem, not overall wealth problem.

If by “City” you mean the municipal government, which is the relevant entity in this discussion, once again you are wrong.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.the...-to-find-more-money-or-spend-less-keenan.html
“The city manager is the latest to warn that the city is heading towards a financial cliff.”

http://m.metronews.ca/#/article/vie...-on-why-toronto-boom-town-is-such-a-bust.html
“Wallace also reports that the city has reached its debt capacity, meaning there is no room for new spending on major public works projects. Unless Toronto City Council adjusts its debt limit or finds new revenue sources, the city is tapped out.“

That's why I was impressed when the City Council approved a dedicated tax to support SSE. We should be doing more of this, not less.

This is the first somewhat sensible thing you have said, and even in this your words are only half sensible. Raising dedicated taxes for specific transit projects is an innovative and lucrative revenue source. The problem is applying it to a purely politically-motivated transit line that lacks any objective basis in ridership, density, connectivity, and match to local transit patterns. But that’s what this circular debate in this ridiculous forum has been about...

If you prefer not to see value of SSE, that's your choice. Actual riders will see the value, and will laugh at your bias.

Again, you are the biased one here. What I want is a RATIONAL, APOLITICAL and RESPONSIBLE use of all of our hard-earned tax dollars.

I don’t care where in the city my tax money goes—as long as it goes how and where it is RATIONAL to go.

You are purposely ignoring all the facts.

Facts:
-the fully-funded LRT plan was a better match to objective metrics of ridership
-better match local density levels
-accessibility to priority neighbourhoods
-better match to travel patterns within Scarborough (majority of which remain within Scarborough)
-it was FULLY-FUNDED

Facts:
-politicians of all stripes and all levels have manufactured and stoked the fires of feelings of division and perceived “disrespect” of residents of Scarborough.
current Mayor has distorted objective measures of transfer time/travel time savings that the SSE will provide
-studies have been repressed by numerous municipal politicians including our current Mayor. Why? Because they showed how stupid the SSE is and how it is such a mismatch with the fundamentals.
-the SSE is NOT fully-funded

But I’m sure you will declare all of this Fake News.

Donald Trump and Steve Bannon would be proud.

 

[OneCity]

If only interlining with the Crosstown were an option...

Ford and Mcguinty had settled on the ECLRT to SLRT but unfortunately it was denied by the opposition in council as political egos became bruised. What compromise could possibly be left that would be worth jeopardining more time and further political fall out against not only this but other projects? The costs savings of any other plan a may not be very significant in 5 to 10 years to begin with.

Reality is Scarborough residents would never want to pay for subways outside it's border if this was cancelled. Best we can do is move forward, add a stop or two, and hopefully continue towards building transit as projects become shovel ready. Anything else could jeopardize that

 

[rbt]

Reality is Scarborough residents would never want to pay for subways outside it's border if this was cancelled.

They're [Scarborough councillors] not particularly willing to pay for one to Scarborough either; otherwise it would be a useful proposal and not something that guarantees 90% of residents are riding the bus (or driving).

 

[pstogios]

Reality is Scarborough residents would never want to pay for subways outside it's border if this was cancelled.

You think you speak for the rest of Scarborough, but the reality is, the majority of its residents supported the LRT plan.

 

[OneCity]

They're [Scarborough councillors] not particularly willing to pay for one to Scarborough either; otherwise it would be a useful proposal and not something that guarantees 90% of residents are riding the bus.

That's quite a statement. When a City NDP councilor from a riding a few KM north east of SCC which would have received a couple LRT stops runs on support for the subway (1-stop) and wins. Those who were still in disbelieve about the shortcomings of there LRT plan should have finally understood just how dead it is.

Bus to subway > Bus to LRT to subway for the majority. Moreso on Sheppard with that stub. Local transit is much easier to improve in the future. People here want stops back on the subway and the overwhelming majority of councilors complaining about the money or stops are mostly outside Scarborough. All but one lonely councilor who needs to keep LRT alive to extend Eglinton East thru his ward.

Youll see in in the election. Again

 

[Rainforest]

Don’t worry, Rainforest will make it all go away by declaring that what he says is reality.

Why should I? Twisting the reality is your job, and you manage quite nicely.

 

[Rainforest]

I didnt think it. I presented the facts. You’re the one that twists the facts.

You don't even understand the facts you are trying to present.

If by “City” you mean the municipal government, which is the relevant entity in this discussion, once again you are wrong.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.the...-to-find-more-money-or-spend-less-keenan.html
“The city manager is the latest to warn that the city is heading towards a financial cliff.”

http://m.metronews.ca/#/article/vie...-on-why-toronto-boom-town-is-such-a-bust.html
“Wallace also reports that the city has reached its debt capacity, meaning there is no room for new spending on major public works projects. Unless Toronto City Council adjusts its debt limit or finds new revenue sources, the city is tapped out.“

That passage nicely shows how you fail to understand the facts. The city property taxes are fairly low, raise them by a reasonable amount and you will have funds for projects that are really necessary.

Again, you are the biased one here. What I want is a RATIONAL, APOLITICAL and RESPONSIBLE use of all of our hard-earned tax dollars.

You might want to be rational and responsible, however you are anything but.

You are purposely ignoring all the facts.

Facts:
-the fully-funded LRT plan was a better match to objective metrics of ridership
-better match local density levels
-accessibility to priority neighbourhoods
-better match to travel patterns within Scarborough (majority of which remain within Scarborough)
-it was FULLY-FUNDED

Facts:
-politicians of all stripes and all levels have manufactured and stoked the fires of feelings of division and perceived “disrespect” of residents of Scarborough.
current Mayor has distorted objective measures of transfer time/travel time savings that the SSE will provide
-studies have been repressed by numerous municipal politicians including our current Mayor. Why? Because they showed how stupid the SSE is and how it is such a mismatch with the fundamentals.
-the SSE is NOT fully-funded

Yet another example of you not understanding what the fact is. Facts are numbers such as ridership, travel time, and cost. What you are trying to pass as facts is your biased opinion on the importance of attained benefits vs incurred costs.

But I’m sure you will declare all of this Fake News.

Except that they are not even "news". Old dusty BS you are trying to spread here, for months if not years.

Donald Trump and Steve Bannon would be proud.

Thanks for disclosing your role models.

 

[Rainforest]

You think you speak for the rest of Scarborough, but the reality is, the majority of its residents supported the LRT plan.

Run for a public post in Scarborough, on the LRT platform, and see how many votes you get. Both the provincial and the municipal elections aren't far away.

Btw that's not a taunt. If you actually get substantial support, the discussion about SSE might take another turn.

 

[Hopkins123]

You think you speak for the rest of Scarborough, but the reality is, the majority of its residents supported the LRT plan.

Reality: The majority of Scarborough residents supported RoFo/DoFo during the last election cycle precisely because they were the only politicians sincere about actually building the subway and not leaving it vulnerable to these sorts of attacks. They even legislated a tax levy to fund the thing. Now you and your cohorts are threatening to take away the billions earmarked to be spent in Scarborough out of seeming pure ideology, when it's a known fact that millions more of commuters annually would ride a subway extension versus a revamped S(L)RT.

But yeah, kick the gift horse in the teeth why don't you. Just don't expect Scarborough (or any suburban constituent for that matter) to be on side when you come a knocking for revenue for your own pet projects. The East Remembers!

 

[rbt]

They even legislated a tax levy to fund the thing.

Well, that's not exactly a complete statement. The city, under Rob Ford, committed 3 funding streams toward the SSE project. General debt, development fees (primarily condo and office construction), and the tax levy.

The tax levy is the most visible component but it didn't represent the full or even majority contribution.

IIRC, the original math was around $700M for the city's total contribution with $300M from debt and around $160M from development charges. Since then the math has changed a bit as BILD fought part or all of the development charge contribution.

Anyway, revenues from the "Scarborough Subway Extension Special Levy" aren't quite the war chest you might think it is; revenue is $40.699M in 2017. That's the full size as the phase in period is done. It can fund construction of something with a value around $400M with 30 years of payments. That money absolutely should be spent on Scarborough transit, but its size makes that closer to minor improvements to bus service than anything more capital intense. Even funding a dedicated busway would be a challenge.

Ford, and Scarborough councillors, really let you guys down despite the back-patting they all gave themselves. Few rate payers would have made noise if the levy was 5x the size and enough to fund $6B ($2B city + matching federal/provincial funds) worth of projects in Scarborough.

The "City Building Fund" (under Tory) is adding to that collection but of course it's for many more projects and also an unnecessarily small scale ($14.046M in 2017). This one has the weird quirk of converting into general revenues after year 5.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Extend the subway by all means but have Line 2 terminate at Danforth GO and split off the Scarborough section of Line 2 and have it head south to the waterfront and have express like services from the beaches to the CBD. So you don’t have to unnecessarily sit through the Danforth and be greeted by that Bloor/Yonge bottleneck if that’s where you’re headed.

 

[jaybe]

Reality: The majority of Scarborough residents supported RoFo/DoFo during the last election cycle precisely because they were the only politicians sincere about actually building the subway and not leaving it vulnerable to these sorts of attacks. They even legislated a tax levy to fund the thing. Now you and your cohorts are threatening to take away the billions earmarked to be spent in Scarborough out of seeming pure ideology, when it's a known fact that millions more of commuters annually would ride a subway extension versus a revamped S(L)RT.

But yeah, kick the gift horse in the teeth why don't you. Just don't expect Scarborough (or any suburban constituent for that matter) to be on side when you come a knocking for revenue for your own pet projects. The East Remembers!

Yes, that is an unfortunately fact. Rob Ford simplified complex issues. Do you remember how he referred to the LRT as streetcars? He disregarded that the proposed Scarborough LRT would be completely grade separated. Many suggested that Rob didn't understand the difference. That is how he won the argument for Subways, Subways, Subways! in Scarborough. It was completely disingenuous or, at best, uninformed.

So here we are, years later, with the facts trickling out. The LRT is a viable option. The LRT is the best fit.

 

[Sakraycore]

Run for a public post in Scarborough, on the LRT platform, and see how many votes you get. Both the provincial and the municipal elections aren't far away.

Btw that's not a taunt. If you actually get substantial support, the discussion about SSE might take another turn.

I have actually made it part of my priorities to eventually run for a ward position in Scarborough (currently on the board of directors for my condominium complex) mostly due to this topic lol. But yea, my current position is to proceed with SSE, but add infil station for Lawrence in the future.

 

[BurlOak]

I have actually made it part of my priorities to eventually run for a ward position in Scarborough (currently on the board of directors for my condominium complex) mostly due to this topic lol. But yea, my current position is to proceed with SSE, but add infil station for Lawrence in the future.

My guess is that North York Centre was a shallow station. I would guess that it is next to impossible to add an infill station for Lawrence later. You better be careful, or you be one of those politicians making unrealistic promises just to get elected. If you want Lawrence, find a way to put the line under the McCowan road bridge over Highland Creek - then Lawrence is a shallow station that can be built now for not much money.

 

[Sakraycore]

My guess is that North York Centre was a shallow station. I would guess that it is next to impossible to add an infill station for Lawrence later. You better be careful, or you be one of those politicians making unrealistic promises just to get elected. If you want Lawrence, find a way to put the line under the McCowan road bridge over Highland Creek - then Lawrence is a shallow station that can be built now for not much money.

that's politics for you lol (promises don't always become reality). still better to vote for someone who will try to make it a reality rather than someone who is against it in the first place. But really, like OneCity said, who in Scarborough is against SSE other than that one person in the ward next to the ECLRT?