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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

Streety McCarface said:
While the PCs may prioritize Yonge North, as long as both are being built at the same time, the system won't collapse even if the DRL is opened 2-3 years after YN. There are capacity constraints, yes, but many people will choose not to take the TTC if it's severely overcrowded during that transition period. Others might shift over to St. George for that transition period. There's even a chance they'll add platform screen doors at that one station so there's little to no risk of pushing. Don't get me wrong, I want the DRL built to sheppard first, but considering the politics, it wouldn't be horrible if it was built but 2 years after YN. At least we'd get something.
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I don't mind at all if DRL opens 2 or 3 years after YN. There would be a number of ways to manage the capacity for such a period.

The problem is that they won't have funding for 3 subways. Even if they set aside $5 billion and get the same federal amount, they will have to spend ~ 4 billion on SSE and the remaining 6 billion will fund either DRL or YN but not both. If YN wins, the DRL will have to wait at least 4 years, possibly more.
 
Rainforest said:
I don't mind at all if DRL opens 2 or 3 years after YN. There would be a number of ways to manage the capacity for such a period.

The problem is that they won't have funding for 3 subways. Even if they set aside $5 billion and get the same federal amount, they will have to spend ~ 4 billion on SSE and the remaining 6 billion will fund either DRL or YN but not both. If YN wins, the DRL will have to wait at least 4 years, possibly more.
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If they build Yonge North. DRL will need to wait another 10 years after YN is done.

Also what DT residents don’t realize is that the Subway is full from Eglinton, not Bloor. The DRL will solve some issues, but it will not solve capacity issues on the Yonge line.
 
Rainforest said:
I don't mind at all if DRL opens 2 or 3 years after YN. There would be a number of ways to manage the capacity for such a period.

The problem is that they won't have funding for 3 subways. Even if they set aside $5 billion and get the same federal amount, they will have to spend ~ 4 billion on SSE and the remaining 6 billion will fund either DRL or YN but not both. If YN wins, the DRL will have to wait at least 4 years, possibly more.
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Like what ways, exactly? They can't even manage the capacity now without it turning into a gongshow. Don't tell me ATC is going to resolve the issue, because the stations can't even handle the loads now.

AoD
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
It appears that CEO Andy Byford was being dishonest about the origins of a Scarborough Subway briefing note, when questioned on by Council. In just-released previous communications with Cllr. Matlow, Byford admitted that it was the Mayor’s office that requested the memo be made, which is something that the CEO denied when asked about it at Council


Text from TTC CEO contradicts public statements on subway memo


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From @BenSpurr on Twitter: Byford doesn't dispute the contents of the text, but maintains it's "consistent" with his public statements. Says that briefing note was prepared for him by TTC staff.
 
WislaHD said:
@OneCity @Rainforest do you guys have any thoughts on Brown's proposal for the Province taking over the municipality's share of the Scarborough subway costs with the city put in charge of funding and planning Crosstown East?
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Its a very strong Political move as the DRL, Yonge, Sheppard and SSE subways are supported heavily within a large radius surrounding, it also corners the "subway champion" Liberals to speak up here and makes sense logistically given the subway is going to be branching further into the 905 in the coming decades. The Province can better plan for the future as they connect the Central nodes without municipal gridlock.

Most importantly the City of Toronto is too divided and simply cant work well together on the line to connect SCC, and soon Sheppard. So its very much for the best its taken out of their hands completely before it really gets out of hand. We can all have our preference here and most would agree the one stop is not ideal but I really cant imagine the chaos and spill over into future projects if it were upended by an Scarborough council in favour of the old transfer LRT. Comparing these two flawed plans will not produce a healthy outcome. And as I said, debates, studies, inflation, etc can easily negate any savings and eat another decade or two very easily. That's not the right move when we have upper levels starting to come to the table on this file.

Id rather let the Province decide to add the stop at Lawrence or not and just move on. I'm completely in the camp of moving forward with one or two stop, I also fully support the subway loop if the stubway is not convertible to LRT or the appetite to explore this further is not strong enough. Its great to put the Eglinton East LRT in the hands of the City which has been taxing for transit in Scarborough thru the SSE levy. The City of Toronto should have no excuses taxing and raising the majority of funds necessary for all future local LRT/BRT projects, but subways are something far beyond the Municipal capacity of planning and funding. The City loves LRT so this keeps planning fairly straight forward.

I understand the response to be skeptical and always should with Politicians of any stripe. But this is certainly a far different political climate and a good sign from the Cons. I'm eagerly awaiting the Liberals transit response, as this has undoubtedly put the pressure on transit that has never existed previously.
 
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OneCity said:
Its a very strong Political move as the DRL, Yonge, Sheppard and SSE subways are supported heavily within a large radius surrounding, it also corners the "subway champion" Liberals to speak up here and makes sense logistically given the subway is going to be branching further into the 905 in the coming decades. The Province can better plan for the future as they connect the Central nodes without municipal gridlock.

Most importantly the City of Toronto is too divided and simply cant work well together on the line to connect SCC, and soon Sheppard. So its very much for the best its taken out of their hands completely before it really gets out of hand. We can all have our preference here and most would agree the one stop is not ideal but I really cant imagine the chaos and spill over into future projects if it were upended by an Scarborough council in favour of the old transfer LRT. Comparing these two flawed plans will not produce a healthy outcome. And as I said, debates, studies, inflation, etc can easily negate any savings and eat another decade or two very easily. That's not the right move when we have upper levels starting to come to the table on this file.

Id rather let the Province decide to add the stop at Lawrence or not and just move on. I'm completely in the camp of moving forward with one or two stop, I also fully support the subway loop if the stubway is not convertible to LRT or the appetite to explore this further is not strong enough. Its great to put the Eglinton East LRT in the hands of the City which has been taxing for transit in Scarborough thru the SSE levy. The City of Toronto should have no excuses taxing and raising the majority of funds necessary for all future local LRT/BRT projects, but subways are something far beyond the Municipal capacity of planning and funding. The City loves LRT so this keeps planning fairly straight forward.

I understand the response to be skeptical and always should with Politicians of any stripe. But this is certainly a far different political climate and a good sign from the Cons. I'm eagerly awaiting the Liberals transit response, as this has undoubtedly put the pressure on transit that has never existed previously.
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It's interesting that people are carefully reviewing the Conservative transit plan. There is this knowledge that if they promise it, they will keep their promise. The Liberals on the other hand have lost their credibility so no matter what they say, they won't be believed.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
It appears that CEO Andy Byford was being dishonest about the origins of a Scarborough Subway briefing note, when questioned on by Council. In just-released previous communications with Cllr. Matlow, Byford admitted that it was the Mayor’s office that requested the memo be made, which is something that the CEO denied when asked about it at Council


Text from TTC CEO contradicts public statements on subway memo


View attachment 129560

View attachment 129561
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LOL! The more the Star digs, the uglier the truth about this sham of a subway extension is. They're going to relentlessly keep going until supporting this proposal becomes taboo politically.
 
BurlOak said:
It's interesting that people are carefully reviewing the Conservative transit plan. There is this knowledge that if they promise it, they will keep their promise. The Liberals on the other hand have lost their credibility so no matter what they say, they won't be believed.
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No Politician can be trusted. This is nothing new, or a Left/Right thing. The point is we are seeing transit at the forefront of all parties as the GTA is at a tipping point and they cant kick the ball much further without serious action. This is the best we could have hoped for from the Conservatives.
 
BurlOak said:
If they want a Business Case with Benefit Cost, then it was done.
They then chose to ignore it. Why do another.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...itscases/Benefits_Case-Eglinton_Crosstown.pdf
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Exactly. Anyone cheering on the Star in their quest to push the transfer LRT agenda wont likely have much to cheer about in the aftermath of a subway cancellation (unlikely). The Star gets its great drama story to sell some media, props some Left leaning political affiliates with their agenda attached and the City as an entirety would receive massive transit turmoil and delays like we have never witnessed. Not only would Scarborough see no progress, the rest of the City would soon be affected miserably. As flawed as the current SSE is, and certainly many residents here are not happy the stops have been neutered, the alternative being promoted is really not worth a comparison and there is 99% democratic support to do better than the transfer LRT plan within Scarborough. Its great there's a report (being ignored) to show the plan was weak and discredits the "evidence based" narrative being flung around but the overwhelming democratic support alone once the transfer plan was called out spoke volumes that something was obviously not right in the details. Unfortunately the recommended LRT plans were shot down due to the anti everything Ford brigade, and we ended up with this expensive "compromise" and an upset Opposition unwilling to budge or work towards a better solution.

What Brown is offering here (beyond the obvious politics) is timely to say the least. Tory's overall plan is pretty good and even better if they can add the stop back in at Lawrence, going backward in this municipal climate is suicide. If flexing municipal Political muscle is more important than moving forward, then keep laughing and hoping I guess? I just don't see the major savings for many reasons, no progress, or little upside to further study here in this climate, especially when upper levels of Government of all stripes are finally showing up to the table. The City should be doing everything to find some common ground and speak with one strong voice instead of beating each other up internally.
 
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