Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

I see a much bigger red flag in the attempts to kill SSE.

So you'd rather they spend billions more than originally planned for a plan that's completely impractical?

Sounds very flexible...

You can sit on your high horse and head for the doom. I prefer a more realistic and somewhat flexible approach, that gets the things done much more often.

Need based transit planning is 'doom and gloom'? Didn't you just suggest that "Scarborough voting en masse against any substantial transit spending in the city. "If you killed our subway, we will try to kill your subways and your light rail lines as well."

That line of thinking and voting would hurt all areas of the city, including Scarborough itself. And yet, that idea would become a very real driving force for many voters from Scarborough."

That seems far more 'doom and gloom' than building infrastructure appropriate to the area, and it's certainly not flexible.

The SSE is defined by inflexibility, both in it's rationale and implementation. This is a line that's already billions over it's original estimate, and can't be expanded in the future between Kennedy and STC. It's anything but realistic and flexible.

 

[ssiguy2]

One thing I don't understand is why the subway proponents just demand a subway but have it use the existing RT corridor just like the LRT would. There is no significant difference in cost between one or the other and yes there would be a downtown for the RT until the at-grade subway is built but that would also be the case with the LRT. Wouldn't that satisfy both sides and save a fortune to boot?

 

[UD2]

One thing I don't understand is why the subway proponents just demand a subway but have it use the existing RT corridor just like the LRT would. There is no significant difference in cost between one or the other and yes there would be a downtown for the RT until the at-grade subway is built but that would also be the case with the LRT. Wouldn't that satisfy both sides and save a fortune to boot?

The Liberal government need that corridor for RER, and John Tory need the same space for Smart Trek. The need to replace the RT with a subway wasn't always about Scarborough, certain people needed the space to be freed up to push for their own agendas.

Otherwise there would be no need to tunnel, They could simply build an above ground raised track for the subway cars to travel and use existing station locations that the RT already occupies.

 

[ssiguy2]

But QP also needed the corridor for the LRT. What's the difference between having an LRT and a at-grade subway?

 

[Rainforest]

So you'd rather they spend billions more than originally planned for a plan that's completely impractical?

Sounds very flexible...

It is practical, and will shorten many commute times.

Need based transit planning is 'doom and gloom'? Didn't you just suggest that "Scarborough voting en masse against any substantial transit spending in the city. "If you killed our subway, we will try to kill your subways and your light rail lines as well."

That line of thinking and voting would hurt all areas of the city, including Scarborough itself. And yet, that idea would become a very real driving force for many voters from Scarborough."

That seems far more 'doom and gloom' than building infrastructure appropriate to the area, and it's certainly not flexible.

Exactly. This is the kind of doom and gloom that we need to avoid.

The SSE is defined by inflexibility, both in it's rationale and implementation. This is a line that's already billions over it's original estimate, and can't be expanded in the future between Kennedy and STC. It's anything but realistic and flexible.

Why does it need to be expanded past STC? STC can be the connection point between the SSE terminus and light rail lines.

 

[syn]

One thing I don't understand is why the subway proponents just demand a subway but have it use the existing RT corridor just like the LRT would. There is no significant difference in cost between one or the other and yes there would be a downtown for the RT until the at-grade subway is built but that would also be the case with the LRT. Wouldn't that satisfy both sides and save a fortune to boot?

The need for an underground route is politically motivated.

This project should be entirely above ground; there's no need to incur the (enormous) cost of digging.

If this does happen, one has to ask - is such a line better than what they have now? You lose a transfer, but you also lose all the stops the RT provides. A pretty lousy trade-off for billions of dollars.

This is probably the best plan, something they can attempt to loop in the future (if they don't have the budget to do it now):

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

@OneCity @Rainforest do you guys have any thoughts on Brown's proposal for the Province taking over the municipality's share of the Scarborough subway costs with the city put in charge of funding and planning Crosstown East?

 

[innsertnamehere]

It would be good for city finances. The risks of the Malvern LRT are likely a lot lower in terms of cost overruns.

 

[RyanM12]

Instead of Crosstown East, there should be an elevated Sheppard extension, taking the old RT route to Malvern. (i.e. swing down to the Ellesmere RT stop after Agincourt GO).

The SSE will be built, but I don't believe it will end up as one stop. There will be enough outrage that there will be at least on more stop at Lawrence added before it opens.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

From the Globe:

Scarborough subway plan should be reconsidered if costs go above $3.56-billion: Byford

AoD

 

[syn]

Interesting that Byford and Keesmaat are essentially suggesting they move in another direction (as the real cost is already above $3.56 billion), now that both are on their way out.

The only way I can see keeping costs in line is to put it entirely above ground.

 

[Neutrino]

Honestly, a three stop elevated line would probably be a good compromise: lower costs (maybe not absolute number, but cost-benefit ratio), higher ridership than one stop and no transfer.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Interesting how people becomes so much more unequivocal when their job is no longer on the line.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Interesting how people becomes so much more unequivocal when their job is no longer on the line.

AoD

Hey, Karen Stintz was in the media the other day parroting “Scarborough deserves subways”. I wonder if we’ll see her pop up on any ballots soon.

 

[Hopkins123]

From the Globe:

Scarborough subway plan should be reconsidered if costs go above $3.56-billion: Byford

AoD

It won't be the City's responsibility if there's cost overruns regardless if Patrick Brown becomes the next Premier. We could just as well double the pricetag and get the line all the way to Morningside Heights via Centennial and Malvern TC if we're not footing the bill. Byford's opinion is irrelevant.