Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

Good thing I'm not advocating or pushing "the transfer LRT plan". And ultimately I think by most logical metrics SSE should not be considered an "upgrade". Sure we're omitting a transfer, but we'll also end up with a net zero increase in our subway system length. Stations? Net negative since we're losing four (this affects access, development opportunities, land value, etc). All this after spending x $Billion.

Also those Line 3/Lawrence East ridership #s aren't the best to use. The line is running decrepit loud trains, has a terrible transfer that everyone agrees is a problem, but most importantly it has capacity issues. By default the numbers are artificially lower than they should/could be since there's no room for more riders as peak. Side issues are that the City's planning dept has got its hands full and has for years now. Secondary plans or improving opportunities for development around Line 3 aren't seeing the treatment they theoretically could be. Not a Scarb thing, this is happening everywhere.

I don't really care what the opinion of Scarberians/Torontonians is. Everyone wants subways now, and 80% of ppl are stupid and don't know what's going on. Maybe +90%. IMO at least. But in case you weren't aware, SSE has been slashed to bits. There is no Lawrence station planned (nor one planned to be added at a later date). And it's been cut short from the original plans of reaching Sheppard. I know I mentioned my opinion on one drum-banger speaking on behalf of 3/4 million, but tell me: are those 3/4 million aware that SSE has been reduced to shreds? You make it sound so. But the handful of that 3/4M that use Line 3 certainly didn't know the current plans, so that doesn't exactly bode well when extrapolating.



Meh to that sordid "serious challenge" of yours. Most stations are hard to see. Besides, those who follow TO's transit issues are well aware that Line 3 was done on the cheap and has serious problems. Which I guess is a reason there were plans to significantly remedy this going back 20yrs now. Nobody is arguing to keep the line as-is, so it'd help your argument if you were aware of this.

With Lawrence the point was Ive lived in Scarborough for 9 years or so now and I likely couldn't even expect anyone how to find the Lawrence stop the first time by even telling them the vicinity. They would drive past with no idea. I don't think it was a good design or location. Most residents who live here aside from those that need to use it don't even have a clue it exists when its that hidden. Thats not good at all as it is absurd to hide public transit stops to this degree if we want people to actually want to take or live near transit stops in the future.

And I don't agree with you that the number of really dumb people are that high, nor are residents dumb for wanting a subway or transfer removal. Its a different need here and no one is blind to what has been built in the Centres of North York and Vaughan

Only 1.5% of the population of Scarborough rides the combined Lawrence, Ellesmere and Midland stops. Its not hard to understand why the majority care more about a better connection to SCC. And to think for all the complaining they did at Lawrence station if we are adding a Smarttrack stop or maybe a subway stop instead then 1.1% still have a rapid transit stop. That's why I say TTCriders and the Star/Metroland are wasting their resources and making people feel like there is something with the transfer LRT. There isn't. All this noise they are making and getting promoted on is in supporting of a tiny, tiny, very tiny minority of voters and even if you add in stops at Progress and Markham/Milner its tiny. In addition to the outer areas of SCC the majority of voters who already live around SCC prefer the subway over LRT. The LRT plan is not a joke by any means, it has some good merits, even though not my choice. But the actual support vs. reported supported for the LRT plan is way off from reality. Just look at the democratically elected Politicians who all but one support subways and the recent "subway champions" in Guildwood and Shan in Malvern. Its not even close or worth pushing at this stage. That's what im trying to point out here when people talk about the transfer plan getting put back in. Are they kidding? It doesn't even have a realistic chance at all and LRT need to be improved to have any hope. It hasn't been. Not sure what gain they wish to achieve, and if anything they are helping other candidates.


I would prefer to support the subway along the RT as a compromise or LRT to Eglinton to save costs from the current plan, remove the transfer, and atleast keep stops even if some are poorly located. Im well aware of the history, which is why I don't see "evidence" in why we should keep it even similar to "as-is" with both the transfer and current questionable stop locations and design if we can avoid it. The subway on the RT corridor would be an improvement and also connect SCC better. But at this stage its not an option. Pointing at how bad Tory subway is is not a fair argument to what im saying and id argue if we just add the stop at Larwrence which would be in a much more attractive location its the best solution to move forward, rather than backtracking.

We just have to choose what we decide is best to move forward at this stage between a subway slashed to bits plus Smarttrack and a transfer LRT which will set us back to even attempt to implement. (also my opinion is it should be a subway on the RT corridor as a reasonable compromise). And based on only having those two plans as choiced and whatever else comes out at election time, I will consider them all (as well as other issues) and vote what I think is best. As we all will. But this LRT plan that wont die. Is actually been long gone in reality for quite some time. Its all just Political noise, and im not sure its helping those making it in any way.

 

[APTA-2048]

The point was, Ive lived in Scarborough for 9 years or so now and I likely could even tell anyone how to find the Lawrence stop. I don't think it was a good design or location. Most residents s who live here aside from those that need to use it don't even have a clue it exists when its that hidden. I would support the subway along the RT as a compromise to save costs, remove the transfer, and atleast keep stops. Im well aware of the history, which is why I don't see "evidence" in keeping it "as-is". This would be an improvement and also connect SCC better. But at this stage its not an option anyway.

I'm willing to bet most people arrive at Lawrence East by bus anyway. And stations hostile to pedestrians is not exclusive to the RT. Kennedy, Wilson, Kipling, built just before Lawrence East, suffer from this. I don't think your point is as strong as you think it is.

 

[44 North]

Again. I just have to choose what is best to move forward at this stage between a subway slashed to bits plus Smarttrack, a transfer LRT which will set us back do even attempt to implement. (nor reason it shouldn't be a subway on the RT corridor IMO as a reasonable compromise). And based on only having those two plans as choiced and whatever else comes out at election time, I will consider them all (as well as other issues) and vote what I think is best. As will you.

The point was, Ive lived in Scarborough for 9 years or so now and I likely could even tell anyone how to find the Lawrence stop. I don't think it was a good design or location. Most residents s who live here aside from those that need to use it don't even have a clue it exists when its that hidden. I would support the subway along the RT as a compromise to save costs, remove the transfer, and atleast keep stops. Im well aware of the history, which is why I don't see "evidence" in keeping it "as-is". This would be an improvement and also connect SCC better. But at this stage its not an option anyway.

Well if you're having such trouble finding Line 3's Lawrence E station, and believe that nobody else knows where it is nor will ever be able to find it, then that doesn't bode well for SmartTrack and calls into question your support of a "subway slashed to bits plus Smarttrack" (y'know, since it will have a Lawrence station in the exact same location).

 

[OneCity]

I'm willing to bet most people arrive at Lawrence East by bus anyway. And stations hostile to pedestrians is not exclusive to the RT. Kennedy, Wilson, Kipling, built just before Lawrence East, suffer from this. I don't think your point is as strong as you think it is.

Of course they do, there is no other choice here other than getting dropped off. And that part of my concern. Your examples are very different in purpose and also the exception trying to find some justification I guess. Kipling is an end of line( EOL) station (which is also being developed around), Kennedy is for now also an EOL station and even then it should have been more accessible from the street. Atleast the Crosstown will help that issue a bit. The fact that there is a couple others, even if they are in different locations and serve completely different purposes is no justification to do the same when the opportunity comes to update the line. Atleast GO transit has parking lots and signs. This stop is really a bad way to sell or implement public transit. I don't think you point is very strong in making the case this is a good station design.

 

[OneCity]

Well if you're having such trouble finding Line 3's Lawrence E station, and believe that nobody else knows where it is nor will ever be able to find it, then that doesn't bode well for SmartTrack and calls into question your support of a "subway slashed to bits plus Smarttrack" (y'know, since it will have a Lawrence station in the exact same location).

Are you going to accuse me of designing the stops? I just choose which one is best given the circumstances to move forward. Even the Subway on the RT would leave it out of sight, and id support that plan over both. Building something sooner than later to SCC and removing the transfer are higher priorities to me than anything else at this point. I personally would prefer a more attractive subway stop at McCowan and Lawrence at street level but am understanding there are some geological challenges affecting cost so the subway RT or LRT thru Eglinton seemed like a good compromise to me given the issues. I don't see either option or the transfer plan having any chance at this stage.

And hopefully they'll atleast put some clear signage and a parking garage if its Smartrack. That would sure help its usage and visibility issues. Its very odd we don't have good signage to try to encourage people whatsoever being that is such a good stop design.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

With Lawrence the point was Ive lived in Scarborough for 9 years or so now and I likely couldn't even expect anyone how to find the Lawrence stop the first time by even telling them the vicinity. They would drive past with no idea.

Okay? Virtually all of the demand for suburban subway stations comes from bus transfers. This is an irrelevant argument unless you're planning to make the entire blocks around the station more conductive to urban walkability.

Victoria Park, Warden, Kennedy, Lawrence East, Midland, Scarborough Centre, Islington, Kennedy, Yorkdale, Wilson. I've lived in Toronto all my life, using each of those stations several times, and I couldn't tell you how in the world to enter those stations by foot. Nor would I ever want to know how, since the lands around those stations are virtual no-mans-lands as far as walkability is concerned.

 

[syn]

Although the phrasing "rejected overwhelmingly" may be an overstatement, it is fair to say that the voters clearly lean towards a plan that eliminates the transfer at Kennedy.

If the said distinction is important, you could point it out without attacking the original poster.

Even if you wanted to make that assumption, Scarborough voters were partial to a plan that would either a) replace the RT with a subway for free (2010) or 32km of subway for $9 billion (2015). No one 'voted' for the current plan.

A poll last December (2016) had more Scarborough residents supporting an LRT:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...nts-back-lrt-but-only-slightly-poll-says.html

A public consultation in May did not go well for the city:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...subway-plan-gives-them-just-one-new-stop.html

I also find it odd that we're supposed to ignore the rest of the city in favour of whatever Scarborough supposedly wants.

The entitlement is astounding.

 

[sixrings]

Scarborough is the Quebec of Toronto, always holding politicians ransom.

 

[APTA-2048]

Of course they do, there is no other choice here other than getting dropped off. And that part of my concern. Your examples are very different in purpose and also the exception trying to find some justification I guess. Kipling is an end of line( EOL) station (which is also being developed around), Kennedy is for now also an EOL station and even then it should have been more accessible from the street. Atleast the Crosstown will help that issue a bit. The fact that there is a couple others, even if they are in different locations and serve completely different purposes is no justification to do the same when the opportunity comes to update the line. Atleast GO transit has parking lots and signs. This stop is really a bad way to sell or implement public transit. I don't think you point is very strong in making the case this is a good station design.

So what exactly is your point when you keep bringing up your inability in locating Lawrence East Station? That's not a reason to build a completely new station 2km away. That's a poor argument. You can argue the junction of McCowan and Lawrence would be more logical for any type of station, but the fact is people are pissed off that there won't be any kind of station in this area.

 

[44 North]

Are you going to accuse me of designing the stops? I just choose which one is best given the circumstances to move forward. Even the Subway on the RT would leave it out of sight, and id support that plan over both. Building something sooner than later to SCC and removing the transfer are higher priorities to me than anything else at this point. I personally would prefer a more attractive subway stop at McCowan and Lawrence at street level but am understanding there are some geological challenges affecting cost so the subway RT or LRT thru Eglinton seemed like a good compromise to me given the issues. I don't see either option or the transfer plan having any chance at this stage.

And hopefully they'll atleast put some clear signage and a parking garage if its Smartrack. That would sure help its usage and visibility issues. Its very odd we don't have good signage to try to encourage people whatsoever being that is such a good stop design.

Ok, but your "serious challenge" said to drive on Lawrence and see if a station is visible from an overpass. You said it's not, that it's "out of sight out of mind", and concluded that any station there wouldn't succeed. But in the same post you went on to say how a SmrtTrack station would be successful. Using your own metrics tho it wouldn't matter whether it's a station for Line 3, Line 2 on the same corridor, ST, or Stouff GO - all would be in the same location and thus all unsuccessful according to your challenge.

If you're now arguing that Line 3 has serious problems that require remedying then we're in agreement. Again, nobody here or in any official capacity said to leave the line as-is. You want better signage, wayfinding, maybe stairs/elevator from Lawrence to platform level that's a fair stance. Perhaps eventually these could've been addressed via local residents or the City or past TTC plans. But abandoning it and valuable infrastructure in general (there or anywhere) because you can't see it while driving 70 over a bridge...I wouldn't say that's a fair stance. I can't see Castle Frank from Rosedale Valley Rd, and it only carries 0.1% of Old TO's population (i.e more than that ratio you showed for Lawrence East). Doubt anyone would say to shut it down.

So what exactly is your point when you keep bringing up your inability in locating Lawrence East Station? That's not a reason to build a completely new station 2km away. That's a poor argument. You can argue the junction of McCowan and Lawrence would be more logical for any type of station, but the fact is people are pissed off that there won't be any kind of station in this area.

From what I can tell he doesn't even support a SSE station at Lawrence/McCowan because it stops progress or something. I'm lukewarm to the idea of abandoning Line 3 in favour of SSE, and even I support one. He says we'll add one at a later date (we won't since that's not the plan), and that SmrtTrack's Lawrence East station will be successful (but simultaneously won't be because it's apparently "out of sight out of mind").

 

[syn]

I believe the TTC made it clear the current plan would not allow for any stations to be added in between Kennedy and STC. It'll get some votes this election, but should piss people off for the next 75 years or so.

 

[sixrings]

it's gone really quiet in here

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Scarborough is the Quebec of Toronto, always holding politicians ransom.

They'll continue to hold us ransom in 2026 when they realize that their one-stop subway does indeed have one stop, and that they all have longer commutes because of it.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I believe the TTC made it clear the current plan would not allow for any stations to be added in between Kennedy and STC. It'll get some votes this election, but should piss people off for the next 75 years or so.

It doesn't allow for more stations to be added in now, or doesn't allow for it ever?

 

[W. K. Lis]

It doesn't allow for more stations to be added in now, or doesn't allow for it ever?

They just have to allow for a straight section where a infill station box can be installed at a later date. Like they did with the North York Centre Station, see link.