Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

I believe the TTC made it clear the current plan would not allow for any stations to be added in between Kennedy and STC. It'll get some votes this election, but should piss people off for the next 75 years or so.

It doesn't allow for more stations to be added in now, or doesn't allow for it ever?

They just have to allow for a straight section where a infill station box can be installed at a later date. Like they did with the North York Centre Station, see link.

I'm sure we're all aware of NYC Station. But Lawrence East is a uniquely challenging station. It would lie adjacent to a creek and an active hospital, whose operations we cannot disrupt. Further, the SSE's two tracks are incased in a very deep single-bore tunnel, which I suspect would pose an obstacle compared to the traditional double-bore. With these challenges in mind, it might very well be "impossible" to add a station here at a later date, which is why I'd like some clarification on the TTC's comments regarding the feasibility of adding a station here at some point in the future.

 

[sixrings]

Thought part of the problem was how deep the tunnel has to be at lawrence

They just have to allow for a straight section where a infill station box can be installed at a later date. Like they did with the North York Centre Station, see link.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

They'll continue to hold us ransom in 2026 when they realize that their one-stop subway does indeed have one stop, and that they all have longer commutes because of it.

The people of Scarborough are this....the people of Scarborough are that.....

your Scarborough rants are silly.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

They'll continue to hold us ransom in 2026 when they realize that their one-stop subway does indeed have one stop, and that they all have longer commutes because of it.

The people of Scarborough are this....the people of Scarborough are that.....

your Scarborough rants are silly.

And what is your ad hominem argument supposed to be?

And of observing that a one-stop subway extension probably isn't going to sedate the concerns about the quality of transportation in Scarborough qualifies as a rant, then sure.

 

[44 North]

I sort of agree that any argument isn't helped when saying people of Scarboro this or that. As much as I respect the uniqueness of all the boroughs, they're all Torontonians. However if I am going to make a lumped assessment about ppl of Scarb, it'd be that they're taking the lack of a Lawrence station quite well. At least for the Bendale area. If I lived on Benorama or Benhur I'd certainly be pissed, and a lot more vocal about the decision-making that leaves zero inline stations.

And re: the hospital, I thought it was official that it was to close in the next few years. A couple posters said this, and if it is true it should very much be considered in how the valley is crossed. But even if it wasn't, we should go back to the alignment choosing phase. I mean, it somehow failed to consider the basics like a large valley. So knowing this maybe a Brimley alignment would be best. Obviously some would argue that this slows progress, but I think the opposite is true. And we're doing the same with RL (i.e Carlaw-Pape jog).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

However if I am going to make a lumped assessment about ppl of Scarb, it'd be that they're taking the lack of a Lawrence station quite well

A bit early to be making such statements, no? Especially on the heels of that poll suggesting most users of Lawrence East were unaware it would be disappearing.

Torontonians tend to be quite ignorant about transit progress in the city. I live not to far from the Crosstown LRT, and some six years into construction it's not at all uncommon to see people around here have no idea what all the construction along Eglinton Avenue is about. You'd think the hundreds of Crosstown LRT signs dotting the street would give it away, but evidently not. They'll be in for quite the surprise when the busses disappear from Eglinton come September 2021. And even for many that are aware of the Crosstown, there's a ton of confusion about whether it's surface or underground and where exactly for the line will run.

Likewise, for the SSE, I get the impression that the public generally doesn't know much other than there's talk of a subway somewhere in Scarborough.

For the Relief Line, I'm confident that most of the public doesn't know where it's going, other than somewhere Downtown. I've had several conversations with people where is was quickly evident that they didn't even know what this $6.5 Billion subway project was, let alone why it was needed/justified and where it was going.

Torotonians just know that transit sucks and that they want it to improve. And I can't blame them. If I weren't an urbanist I probably wouldn't have the energy to spend time understanding the constantly changing proposals. For Scarborough we got our one stop, three stop, seven stop proposals, surface LRTs, underground LRTs, "LRTs are streetcars", surface subways, underground subways. It's all a big mess to the causal observer.

 

[MisterF]

A bit early to be making such statements, no? Especially on the heels of that poll suggesting most users of Lawrence East were unaware it would be disappearing.

Torontonians tend to be ignorant about transit progress in the city. I live not to far from the Crosstown LRT, and some six years into construction it's not at all uncommon to see people around here have no idea what all the construction along Eglinton Avenue is about. You'd think the hundreds of Crosstown LRT signs dotting the street would give it away, but evidently not. They'll be in for quite the surprise when the busses disappear from Eglinton come September 2021. And even for many that are aware of the Crosstown, there's a ton of confusion about whether it's surface or underground and where exactly for the line will run.

Likewise, for the SSE, I get the impression that the public generally doesn't know much other than there's talk of a subway somewhere to STC.

For the Relief Line, I'm confident that most of the public doesn't know where it's going, other than somewhere Downtown (I've had a lot of conversations with members of the public about this particular project).

Torotonians just know that transit sucks and that they want it to improve. And I can't blame them. If I weren't an urbanist I probably wouldn't have the energy to spend time understanding the constantly changing proposals. For Scarborough we got our one stop, three stop, seven stop proposals, surface LRTs, underground LRTs, "LRTs are streetcars", surface subways, underground subways. It's all a big mess to the causal observer.

Very true. My girlfriend's sister lives near Eglinton and she thought the line was going to be a streetcar on the street. It's amazing to me how little about these things people know. The general impression in Toronto is that the city/province are doing nothing for transportation. I guess it's tough to blame them, since none of the big ticket transportation improvements are finished.

 

[44 North]

A bit early to be making such statements, no? Especially on the heels of that poll suggesting most users of Lawrence East were unaware it would be disappearing.

Torontonians tend to be quite ignorant about transit progress in the city. I live not to far from the Crosstown LRT, and some six years into construction it's not at all uncommon to see people around here have no idea what all the construction along Eglinton Avenue is about. You'd think the hundreds of Crosstown LRT signs dotting the street would give it away, but evidently not. They'll be in for quite the surprise when the busses disappear from Eglinton come September 2021. And even for many that are aware of the Crosstown, there's a ton of confusion about whether it's surface or underground and where exactly for the line will run.

Likewise, for the SSE, I get the impression that the public generally doesn't know much other than there's talk of a subway somewhere in Scarborough.

For the Relief Line, I'm confident that most of the public doesn't know where it's going, other than somewhere Downtown. I've had several conversations with people where is was quickly evident that they didn't even know what this $6.5 Billion subway project was, let alone why it was needed/justified and where it was going.

Torotonians just know that transit sucks and that they want it to improve. And I can't blame them. If I weren't an urbanist I probably wouldn't have the energy to spend time understanding the constantly changing proposals. For Scarborough we got our one stop, three stop, seven stop proposals, surface LRTs, underground LRTs, "LRTs are streetcars", surface subways, underground subways. It's all a big mess to the causal observer.

Totally. I remember the worst example I encountered personally was when my sister thought the Spadina extension she'd been hearing about was on Spadina, this while living/working around Spadina lol. But yeah I think that poll you mentioned speaks volumes and shouldn't be brushed aside as some suggest. We're losing a significant chunk of infrastructure that all things considered carries a respectable amount of riders. And not only are many unaware, but those that actually use it are largely unaware.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think this thread should include debate on Sheppard East now as well.

 

[Hopkins123]

Scarborough is the Quebec of Toronto, always holding politicians ransom.

Gee, and yet in spite of this so-called ransom, all the new subways built in the last 30 years have all been in North York. Scarborough still only has three stations and the rickshaw tram to the Town Centre to serve a population of over 650k. I think something's wrong with your analogy.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Gee, and yet in spite of this so-called ransom, all the new subways built in the last 30 years have all been in North York. Scarborough still only has three stations and the rickshaw tram to the Town Centre to serve a population of over 650k. I think something's wrong with your analogy.

North York's centrality and vast geographic size essentially ensures that it'll have more subways than any other Metro Toronto municipality for as long as we live. That's not at all an issue, since these rapid transit projects serve people all over Toronto, regardless of which former municipality they live in. The Spadina Subway and an eventual Relief Line western terminus would serve people deep into Etobickoe. The Yonge Line and Relief Line North provides people in Scarborough with shorter downtown-bound commutes, and the Relief Line North in particular provides the people of York Region, North York, Scarborough, Old Toronto and Etobickoe with less crowded downtown-bound commutes.

 

[Johnny Au]

Gee, and yet in spite of this so-called ransom, all the new subways built in the last 30 years have all been in North York. Scarborough still only has three stations and the rickshaw tram to the Town Centre to serve a population of over 650k. I think something's wrong with your analogy.

North York's centrality and vast geographic size essentially ensures that it'll have more subways than any other Metro Toronto municipality for as long as we live. That's not at all an issue, since these rapid transit projects serve people all over Toronto, regardless of which former municipality they live in. The Spadina Subway and an eventual Relief Line western terminus would serve people deep into Etobickoe. The Yonge Line and Relief Line North provides people in Scarborough with shorter downtown-bound commutes, and the Relief Line North in particular provides the people of York Region, North York, Scarborough, Old Toronto and Etobickoe with less crowded downtown-bound commutes.

Of the six former municipalities, North York is the last to receive a subway; it was in 1973!

Scarborough had a subway half a decade earlier in 1968 (tied with Etobicoke, York, and East York, though the subway only passed through York and East York).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Totally. I remember the worst example I encountered personally was when my sister thought the Spadina extension she'd been hearing about was on Spadina, this while living/working around Spadina lol. But yeah I think that poll you mentioned speaks volumes and shouldn't be brushed aside as some suggest. We're losing a significant chunk of infrastructure that all things considered carries a respectable amount of riders. And not only are many unaware, but those that actually use it are largely unaware.

In her defence, the name "Spadina Subway Extension" is incredibly misleading. Props to her for even knowing there was a Spadina subway extension


Worst example for myself was a real estate agent that was talking about the various community amenities in the Eglinton West area. He gets to transit, talks about how it's close to the bus and fails to mention the LRT at all. I mention that the LRT will be coming in a few years, and he says "oh yea" slightly bewildered, as if this is new information. I don't want to say he was unaware of the project, but it's not a good sign when a real estate agent trying to sell a property fails to mention the new subway line 400 metres to the south.


My mother (very smart woman) thought the Eglinton LRT construction was general roadwork.


So, yea. Ignorance abound when it comes to transit expansion in Toronto.

 

[pstogios]

Gee, and yet in spite of this so-called ransom, all the new subways built in the last 30 years have all been in North York. Scarborough still only has three stations and the rickshaw tram to the Town Centre to serve a population of over 650k. I think something's wrong with your analogy.

Gee, I think something's wrong with your assumption that population = appropriateness for rapid transit. Ever heard of population density? That's what really matters.

See the attached image.

Notice the dearth of orange and red in Scarborough? That's the real reason why subways aren't warranted there.

 

[sixrings]

Development isn't there because there is no subway. Once subway gets to STC it will become manhatten north