Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

How chief planner Jennifer Keesmaat tried to stop the Scarborough subway


More of the same from the Star.

It serves 2 purposes: criticizes SSE, and promotes Keesmaat for future office as a Progressive.
I note there is still no mention of how Council and Liberal MPPs killed* the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown just to defeat the (then) popular Rob Ford. Within a half a year, they realized their own jobs were in trouble and introduced the SSE to save their jobs.

* - Council killed it by their vote, of course. Liberals killed it by hiding Metrolinx June 2012 report from City Council (to ensure Council would vote against the Ford plan) and from the public (so they could run as Subway Champions in 2013 by-election and 2014 election). This was a clear example of defeating Ford at all costs - and now we are paying those costs. It is likely cheaper (on a per seat basis), then the Liberals wasted on the Oakville and Mississauga gas plants.

The Star has been really trying to promote Keesmat as a brand and even coining her as a "celebrity". Speculating here but she may have stepped down for a soft landing as the media and Political opposition can now ramp up the attack on the SSE and Tory into the election. Therfore she won't have her name in the line of fire even since she would have to field questions ad she was very much a part of the current 1 stop. Sad as that sounds as there is no doubt that have a large planned attack coming and the left media has been pumping out some great PR for her.

Inevitably this ongoing attack is just handing Ford votes if he runs. A part of why people voted for the Fords in the last two elections because of this bias crap in the first place. Certianly It wasnt for good behaviour or good looks. Tory and Ford will run away again as the opposition is really only digging a deeper hole now

And there is no doubt anymore this ongoing transfer LRT promotion is completely political based and certainly not "evidence based". The evidence was the first political plan with transfer was rejected overwhelmingly in the last two elections when given the democratic opportunity to stop it. There is little "evidence based" planning in the Sheppard stubway or the current RT but they expected Scarborough to ignore the short comings and inconvenience caused busy both plans and then when the Vaughan centre subway was approved it was another slap. This "evidence based" nonsense to rally their dwindling base is going to cost them again.

They really need a better political strategist at this stage.

 

[sixrings]

Nice...Kennedy station has no development, that has to be a conspiracy theory.... keesmaat steps down, that must be because her and the evil left wing star collaborated to take down good old tory and his poor working class scarborough voters...fact, mark it down

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Star has been really trying to promote Keesmat as a brand and even coining her as a "celebrity". Speculating here but she may have stepped down for a soft landing ad the media and Political opposition can now ramp up the attack on the SSE and Tory into the election. Therfore she won't have her name in the line of fire even since she would have to field questions ad she was very much a part of the current 1 stop. Sad as that sounds as there is no doubt that have a large planned attack coming.

This is Scarborough's Pearl Harbor, amirite?

 

[OneCity]

This is Scarborough's Pearl Harbor, amirite?

Naw the City's political opposition seems to willingly sport their own suicide vests. There really is no surprises here.

The opposition is more like a bad contestant on American Idol who has an ok singing voice with a bad song choice and after a blunt critique still comes back the next two years singing the same song only louder each time expecting a better result. Only the judges here are hundreds of thousands of apathetic voters pissed from not having their voices heard over the loud narrating media and democracy has given them the opportunity to send a message of disapproval. Given the Stintz-Tory-Keesmat hack job I think the opposition could have had better feedback effect had they alteast came in with a different song this time around.

 

[Rainforest]

Assuming that a DRL is not built - which I think is the hope of both those who support transfer LRT and SSE. Both of these put people onto the B-D for a transfer at Y-B - by far the biggest bottleneck on the system whose dwell time control the entire Yonge line. Dividing that dwell time more evenly between Y-B and Y-E will help - although not to any significant extent.

Yes, on one hand. But on the other hand, there is a sizeable amount of riders who take the Yonge line to Bloor from the north, and then transfer to BD. Those riders do not compete for space with the downtown-bound riders transferring from BD.

But they would compete with the downtown-bound riders transferring from the combined Eglinton line.

 

[BurlOak]

Yes, on one hand. But on the other hand, there is a sizeable amount of riders who take the Yonge line to Bloor from the north, and then transfer to BD. Those riders do not compete for space with the downtown-bound riders transferring from BD.

But they would compete with the downtown-bound riders transferring from the combined Eglinton line.

If these people are coming from STC, they would make their 1 transfer at Kennedy, not 1 transfer at Y-E and a 2nd at YB

 

[Rainforest]

If these people are coming from STC, they would make their 1 transfer at Kennedy, not 1 transfer at Y-E and a 2nd at YB

That's not what I meant.

Let's say, there is a flow of riders coming from the Yonge stations in North York, getting off at Y&B, and transferring to the B-D line (west or east). Another flow is made of riders coming from Scarborough via Kennedy Stn, then B-D line, getting off at Y&B, and transferring to the Yonge line southbound. Today, these two flows do not compete for space on the same train.

However, if a portion of the second flow gets shifted to the Eglinton line, they will be transferring to Yonge southbound at Y&E, while riders included in the first flow are still there. Thus, they will compete for space.

Today, the Yonge line's busiest point is just south of Bloor, but the section between Eglinton and Bloor isn't far behind. The above shift could fill the Eglinton-Bloor section to the point where it would be even busier that the Bloor - Queen section.

 

[syn]

The reason we ended up with the SSE was because Ford was fully willing to compromise. All he asked during the 2010 campaign was for transit to not interfere with cars (and thus cars to not interfere with transit).
First there was minor talk of elevation above Eglinton - and there was not a bit of complaint from Ford.
Then they came to an agreement for the underground Eg. Scar Crosstown.
Next came the subway extension.

That isn't all he asked. He asked to double the budget and put vehicles underground where it wasn't necessary. His entire request was based on an appeal to his base and make-believe 'war on the car'.

With this one stop there's probably going to be even more transit on the road in the form of buses, and far less station accessibility, requiring more driving.

It was entirely a political move.

Ford never knew the difference between LRT and Mark II or heavy rail - he just wanted, in his inarticulate way, rapid transit. This is what we ended up with because this is where the compromise led us. If the transfer LRT had budged, maybe we would have ended up elsewhere.

You're basically saying he has no idea what he's talking about, yet it's council's fault for not choosing his 'solution'.

Why should council accept a plan from someone you admit doesn't know what he's doing?

 

[syn]

When someone can show concrete proof that the cost of delays from stopping again with the cost to design another option other than the transfer LRT is going to provide significant savings to warrant another delay of 5 to 10 years. Contrary to whats being ignored in the reporting opposition, the 7 stop transfer LRT would also require a new EA, costs are rising, and it wouldn't be supported by any politicians other than the outside of the ones who have always refused. They also have shown no interest to work to remove transfers even using LRT technology. It's hopeless tbh and not even a realistic option to start another debate with further chaos.

It's the cost to move the City forward and at this stage and it's pretty much too late to go back. Just add a stop and don't make the same mistake on Sheppard by reopening the old LRT plan without addressing the stub as it will end up in the same dragged out mess. Delaying and debating will produce similar cost increases due to inflation anyway.

Then I guess it's safe to assume you were for the much lower cost, and fully funded LRT that was supposed to have been done by now?

This is a very shortsighted position - this ridiculous stop will pretty much ensure there will be no other stops between STC and Kennedy, ever.

All to ensure someone gets particular votes in the next election.

 

[syn]

The Star has been really trying to promote Keesmat as a brand and even coining her as a "celebrity". Speculating here but she may have stepped down for a soft landing as the media and Political opposition can now ramp up the attack on the SSE and Tory into the election. Therfore she won't have her name in the line of fire even since she would have to field questions ad she was very much a part of the current 1 stop. Sad as that sounds as there is no doubt that have a large planned attack coming and the left media has been pumping out some great PR for her.

Inevitably this ongoing attack is just handing Ford votes if he runs. A part of why people voted for the Fords in the last two elections because of this bias crap in the first place. Certianly It wasnt for good behaviour or good looks. Tory and Ford will run away again as the opposition is really only digging a deeper hole now

And there is no doubt anymore this ongoing transfer LRT promotion is completely political based and certainly not "evidence based". The evidence was the first political plan with transfer was rejected overwhelmingly in the last two elections when given the democratic opportunity to stop it. There is little "evidence based" planning in the Sheppard stubway or the current RT but they expected Scarborough to ignore the short comings and inconvenience caused busy both plans and then when the Vaughan centre subway was approved it was another slap. This "evidence based" nonsense to rally their dwindling base is going to cost them again.

They really need a better political strategist at this stage.

The LRT was rejected in 2010 because Ford promised the residents of Scarborough a subway at no cost to the taxpayers. This included consistently false information being spread by Ford, including the idea that the LRT would compete for space with cars and describing them as "streetcars".

The Subway was championed in 2015 based on a $3 billion plan with 3 stops.

In other words, voters were lied to both times, after an approved LRT was ready to be built, funded and supported before 2010. This plan was approved without having to lie about it's nature (ie. pretending it's a subway when it's not).

Your idea of 'evidence' is 'anything that aligns/agrees with what I think'.

I can understand why many consider you a troll.

 

[pstogios]

The LRT was rejected in 2010 because Ford promised the residents of Scarborough were promised a subway with no costs to the taxpayer. This included consistently false information being spread by Ford, including the idea that the LRT would compete for space with cars and describing them as "streetcars".

The Subway was championed in 2015 based on a $3 billion plan with 3 stops.

In other words, voters were lied to both times, after an approved LRT was ready to be built, funded and supported before 2010. This plan was approved without having to lie about it's nature (ie. pretending it's a subway when it's not).

Your idea of 'evidence' is 'anything that aligns/agrees with what I think'.

I can understand why many consider you a troll.

He will never ever ever ever ever ever listen to logic like this, syn. I give you credit for continuing to try but it won't work.

These people are impossible to speak sense to. That's what makes them trolls.

It's like Trump said: "I can shoot someone on McCowan Road and I won't lose any supporters".

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The LRT was rejected in 2010 because Ford promised the residents of Scarborough a subway with no costs to the taxpayer. This included consistently false information being spread by Ford, including the idea that the LRT would compete for space with cars and describing them as "streetcars".

The Subway was championed in 2015 based on a $3 billion plan with 3 stops.

In other words, voters were lied to both times, after an approved LRT was ready to be built, funded and supported before 2010. This plan was approved without having to lie about it's nature (ie. pretending it's a subway when it's not).

Your idea of 'evidence' is 'anything that aligns/agrees with what I think'.

I can understand why many consider you a troll.

Currently having flashbacks of Stintz announcing that Scarborough could get a transfer-free subway for only $500 Million more than the LRT. Ha!

 

[sixrings]

Currently having flashbacks of Stintz announcing that Scarborough could get a transfer-free subway for only $500 Million more than the LRT. Ha!

currently waiting for a rebuttal about how the LRT costs were either artificially low, that they would have increased similar amounts over the years, and to get a new EA done with some evidence to back up your ridiculous hate for Scarborough and equality comments. Ha!

 

[Rainforest]

The LRT was rejected in 2010 because Ford promised the residents of Scarborough a subway at no cost to the taxpayers. This included consistently false information being spread by Ford, including the idea that the LRT would compete for space with cars and describing them as "streetcars".

The Subway was championed in 2015 based on a $3 billion plan with 3 stops.

In other words, voters were lied to both times, after an approved LRT was ready to be built, funded and supported before 2010. This plan was approved without having to lie about it's nature (ie. pretending it's a subway when it's not).

Your idea of 'evidence' is 'anything that aligns/agrees with what I think'.

I can understand why many consider you a troll.

1) The evidence he was talking about is that the LRT supporters lost both the 2010 and the 2014 elections. Whether you agree with the LRT plan on not is another matter, but the LRT supporters losing the vote is a hard fact that can't be denied. Olivia Chow opposed the Scarborough subway, and went from 38% approval rating in the preliminary polls to 25% on the election day.

Before calling someone a troll, try to read what he actually wrote.

2) A statement that "voters were lied to" is a convenient cop-out for the side that lost the elections but refuses to admit the loss or adjust their position. Proponents of each plan had pretty good access to the media and could try to sway the voters their way. If the LRT side failed to win the elections, it means either the voters prefer the subway despite all its drawbacks (higher cost and fewer stations), or the losing side failed to communicate the advantages of their plan to the actual riders.

 

[Rainforest]

currently waiting for a rebuttal about how the LRT costs were either artificially low, that they would have increased similar amounts over the years, and to get a new EA done with some evidence to back up your ridiculous hate for Scarborough and equality comments. Ha!

Do you actually believe that the LRT's costs wouldn't increase?

If the subway plan was tabled but the LRT option was upheld, by now the cost of LRT would have escalated quite a bit and the subway proponents would be complaining that "this LRT already costs more than the subway!" Which probably wouldn't be an accurate statement, either.

Substantial cost escalation seen on all transit projects these days leads to a situation when an evaluated but rejected option stays at its original cost estimate and looks more and more attractive as time passes, because the selected option sees its cost escalate as the design is moving forward.