sixrings
Senior Member
So some people think finch lrt should be in the hydro fields instead of Finch itself while some complain about the RT corridor being off the beaten path. The only solution...subways, subways, subways
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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension
- Thread starter kEiThZ
- Start date
BurlOak
Senior Member
How chief planner Jennifer Keesmaat tried to stop the Scarborough subway
It serves 2 purposes: criticizes SSE, and promotes Keesmaat for future office as a Progressive.
I note there is still no mention of how Council and Liberal MPPs killed* the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown just to defeat the (then) popular Rob Ford. Within a half a year, they realized their own jobs were in trouble and introduced the SSE to save their jobs.
* - Council killed it by their vote, of course. Liberals killed it by hiding Metrolinx June 2012 report from City Council (to ensure Council would vote against the Ford plan) and from the public (so they could run as Subway Champions in 2013 by-election and 2014 election). This was a clear example of defeating Ford at all costs - and now we are paying those costs. It is likely cheaper (on a per seat basis), then the Liberals wasted on the Oakville and Mississauga gas plants.
More of the same from the Star.
It serves 2 purposes: criticizes SSE, and promotes Keesmaat for future office as a Progressive.
I note there is still no mention of how Council and Liberal MPPs killed* the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown just to defeat the (then) popular Rob Ford. Within a half a year, they realized their own jobs were in trouble and introduced the SSE to save their jobs.
* - Council killed it by their vote, of course. Liberals killed it by hiding Metrolinx June 2012 report from City Council (to ensure Council would vote against the Ford plan) and from the public (so they could run as Subway Champions in 2013 by-election and 2014 election). This was a clear example of defeating Ford at all costs - and now we are paying those costs. It is likely cheaper (on a per seat basis), then the Liberals wasted on the Oakville and Mississauga gas plants.
sixrings
Senior Member
well if Rob Ford didnt play the entitlement card to scarborough while at the same time saying he could build subways subways subways through efficiencies we would never have had the rob ford underground lrt plan to begin with.
For the record I think Rob Fords plan was the best plan especially in consideration to how much this subway cost has escalated.
That being said we should never have opened pandoras box to begin with and try to pretend that we can built rapid transit for a fraction of the actual price. John Tory has continued this lie with his smarttrack which has no shovels in the ground, is being delayed, has zero guarantee that the fares will be the exact same as the TTC fares today and now is losing stations.
For the record I think Rob Fords plan was the best plan especially in consideration to how much this subway cost has escalated.
That being said we should never have opened pandoras box to begin with and try to pretend that we can built rapid transit for a fraction of the actual price. John Tory has continued this lie with his smarttrack which has no shovels in the ground, is being delayed, has zero guarantee that the fares will be the exact same as the TTC fares today and now is losing stations.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I don't think even the Scarborough Subway supporters truly believe this subway will make Scarborough residents happy. Come 2026, they'll be complaining about how its only one stop, how there's no stop at Lawrence and Eglinton, and how they now have super long bus rides to get to the one subway stop. $3.5 Billion just to exchange one problem for another. A true travesty.
syn
Senior Member
Which plan is this? The one that eliminated 18 stops, put the whole thing underground and doubled the cost? The plan was defeated because it was a poor solution, and Ford was unwilling to compromise.
Rob Ford was only 'popular' for the first few months of his term. His approval ratings plummeted quite fast.
I'm still amazed that evidence-based planning is dismissed as nothing more than Liberal interference.
syn
Senior Member
Fixed that for you.
It's a vote getting solution that makes no planning sense whatsoever. I know I'll miss the LRT that provides a lot more flexibility. The fact that they can't really add anymore stations to this line (between Kennedy and STC) will have future generations scratching their heads and asking themselves if council was insane.
OneCity
Senior Member
100% correct. People are passed at the lack of stops and are tired of this LRT vs. Subway nonsense. It's not even being reported at all. There was so much middle ground but thanks to Tory's Smarttrack, the anti Ford opposition who to this day refuse to move the discussion from the inferior transfer LRT we are stuck with on stop.
Both sides have basically handed Ford the opportunity to benefit here as he'll surely advocate to kill SmartTrack and add the Lawrence stop. Which as much as I don't like Doug personally I feel it's the best plan given the stage, the Politcal gridlock on Council, and future benefit to central Scarborough.
A true travesty is right.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
At what point does this subway extension become too expensive for you?
MisterF
Senior Member
IMO, the Eglinton line really should have been designed to be a continuation of the SRT. Underground to Laird and then at the surface/elevated as required to Kennedy, then continuing on the existing elevated line to Scarborough City Centre. The way the whole thing has evolved has been a complete farce.
OneCity
Senior Member
When someone can show concrete proof that the cost of delays from stopping again with the cost to design another option other than the transfer LRT is going to provide significant savings to warrant another delay of 5 to 10 years. Contrary to whats being ignored in the reporting opposition, the 7 stop transfer LRT would also require a new EA, costs are rising, and it wouldn't be supported by any politicians other than the outside of the ones who have always refused. They also have shown no interest to work to remove transfers even using LRT technology. It's hopeless tbh and not even a realistic option to start another debate with further chaos.
It's the cost to move the City forward and at this stage and it's pretty much too late to go back. Just add a stop and don't make the same mistake on Sheppard by reopening the old LRT plan without addressing the stub as it will end up in the same dragged out mess. Delaying and debating will produce similar cost increases due to inflation anyway.
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sixrings
Senior Member
so never because the goal post keeps moving. Unless a urban toronto member decides to undertake their own ea with their own money this will never happen. Which even if it did happen we would then have to judge the bias of such urban lefty research. Finally we never need to look at stats, but at the same time blame the fact that there is no current stats on LRT, because in the end we are going to fall back to its time to move on and we have flip flopped too many times. I no longer wonder why people like Ford, or Trump get elected.
BurlOak
Senior Member
I really think that the opposition doesn't care about transit one bit, and it is all about retaining the legacy of David Miller.
It is painfully obvious (and has been for over 4 years) that the transfer LRT plan is dead. Since the SSE was approved, it was incumbent upon the opposition to find an alternative that would be an acceptable replacement to the SSE. The opposition has not done this in any way.
BurlOak
Senior Member
The reason we ended up with the SSE was because Ford was fully willing to compromise. All he asked during the 2010 campaign was for transit to not interfere with cars (and thus cars to not interfere with transit).
First there was minor talk of elevation above Eglinton - and there was not a bit of complaint from Ford.
Then they came to an agreement for the underground Eg. Scar Crosstown.
Next came the subway extension.
Ford never knew the difference between LRT and Mark II or heavy rail - he just wanted, in his inarticulate way, rapid transit. This is what we ended up with because this is where the compromise led us. If the transfer LRT had budged, maybe we would have ended up elsewhere.
Rainforest
Senior Member
SSE is still a better option than either LRT with transfer or LRT combined with Eglinton. The first is inconvenient, while the second would cause overload of the Eglinton line, as well as Yonge line between Eglinton and Bloor.
BurlOak
Senior Member
Assuming that a DRL is not built - which I think is the hope of both those who support transfer LRT and SSE. Both of these put people onto the B-D for a transfer at Y-B - by far the biggest bottleneck on the system whose dwell time control the entire Yonge line. Dividing that dwell time more evenly between Y-B and Y-E will help - although not to any significant extent.