Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

"There are about 250,000 people living downtown, and almost 800,000 living in the Old City of Toronto (pre-amalgamation boundaries). What about the other 550,000? Are they all just walking and cycling too?" which made it imply that there were 550,000 people living in the rest of toronto, meaning 2,250,000 people live in toronto, which is not far off census data. I still don't really understand what you're trying to say here.

Yes - in response to the claim that the vast majority of people in Downtown Toronto walk, cycle or take the streetcar. The point is that there are plenty of people (nearly 69%) in the Old City of Toronto boundaries (97 sq/km) that live outside downtown. That's why they built higher order transit - it was an environment that could support it and people certainly do use the subway.

We're not talking about Old toronto, we're talking about Scarborough. Old Toronto used to be as dense as Scarborough when the subway was built. Density increases as time goes on. Comparing statistics now when the subway was built 50 years ago is quite illogical.

This is false.

Toronto's population in the 1951 census was 675,754. Based on the pre-amalgamation size of the city (97 sq/km), that's a density of of nearly 6967 per sq/km, which is far greater than Scarborough's density now (3,367.6 per sq/km)

The 1951 density number is probably higher too - there were still some villages (I believe Forest Hill was one of them) that hadn't yet been absorbed into the city.

15-20 minutes is huge, meaning a round trip is a good 40 minutes. Who has that kind of time? And the purpose of public transit is to be public, people have to want to use it and it should be useful. That particular trip may not be a huge need for everyone but the fact that there's no subway connection between the Yonge and Spadina lines north of Bloor is concerning, especially if the Yonge line has to close.

If going to Yorkdale is so important, here's an idea - move closer to Yorkdale. Again, it is silly to expect everyone to expect transit to be faster than the car in all situations, especially when one wants to live in a suburban environment.

Effective public transit is dependent on certain factors. Density, both residential and employment is a huge factor. It's completely inefficient to build subways in environments that can't support them.

 

[Rainforest]

Mayor Tory’s executive committee blocks speakers on controversial Scarborough subway item

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...on-controversial-scarborough-subway-item.html

And rightly so.

Mr. Matlow has become really abusive.

Just as Mr. Mammoliti is irrationally fixated on killing the Finch LRT, Mr. Matlow is irrationally fixated on killing the Scarborough Subway.

Both should find better tasks to focus on.

 

[Rainforest]

Again, it is silly to expect everyone to expect transit to be faster than the car in all situations, especially when one wants to live in a suburban environment.

What's the point to invest billions in public transit if we aren't even trying to make it faster and resign to it being slow.

 

[BurlOak]

Listen, Eglinton should have been subway from the airport to Kennedy and LRT from Kennedy to Malvern but all LRT is not bad. I would prefer the former but it is what is now. In the future, it can be converted to full subway I believe, not sure about that though.

I like Eglinton subway going up to STC, Centennial, and Malvern.
B-D going to Kinston road.
BRT along Kingston Road, coming from Pickering and from UTSC, and going to this Station (Kingston Road and Eglinton) and Vic Park.

 

[Hopkins123]

I like Eglinton subway going up to STC, Centennial, and Malvern.
B-D going to Kinston road.
BRT along Kingston Road, coming from Pickering and from UTSC, and going to this Station (Kingston Road and Eglinton) and Vic Park.

I proposed as much on the forum just the other day. It could look something like this:

 

[BurlOak]

I proposed as much on the forum just the other day. It could look something like this:
i

I like your station spacing and the "Eglinton" makes it all the way to Finch.
For B-D, I am not sure if Sherway and Dixie are needed in the West. In the East, I am not sure if the Eglinton to UTSC stretch is worth the cost of 5 stations.

Essentially, this looks very good for E-W travel.

 

[Cobra]

I guess this means the LRT ship has officially sailed:

NDP Andrea Horwath
She also said she supports the Scarborough subway, and will work with municipalities on their transit priorities.
https://www.thestar.com/news/queens...-downtown-relief-line-will-be-a-priority.html

 

[Towered]

I guess this means the LRT ship has officially sailed:

NDP Andrea Horwath
She also said she supports the Scarborough subway, and will work with municipalities on their transit priorities.
https://www.thestar.com/news/queens...-downtown-relief-line-will-be-a-priority.html

Ugh, even she drank the kool aid.

 

[cplchanb]

Ugh, even she drank the kool aid.

i think at this point most just want to see this get built and deal with the results afterwards. its been dragging on way too long and will only drive up the cost
with each month worth of doing nothing.

 

[Sakraycore]

i think at this point most just want to see this get built and deal with the results afterwards. its been dragging on way too long and will only drive up the cost
with each month worth of doing nothing.

After another 5 years back and forth between LRT and subway the price will probably get to 10 billion for the 1 stop xD.

 

[pstogios]

I don’t understand how the argument “let’s stop talking and just build it” trumps “hey maybe this is a stupid use of extremely limited precious infrastructure funds. so let’s not build it at all”.

??????

Since when did expediency beat out rationality in our democracy?

All parties now believe that?

So we just build whatever, and limit rationality, just because some political actor deems it so?

None of us should ever criticize the ridiculous political atmosphere in the USA or anywhere else. We are JUST AS BAD if we allow our politicians to do this to us. Throw ALL the bums out.

I would rather talk about this line for another ten years rather than waste public dollars in building it.

 

[BurlOak]

I don’t understand how the argument “let’s stop talking and just build it” trumps “hey maybe this is a stupid use of extremely limited precious infrastructure funds. so let’s not build it at all”.

??????

Since when did expediency beat out rationality in our democracy?

All parties now believe that?

So we just build whatever, and limit rationality, just because some political actor seems it so?

None of us should ever criticize the ridiculous political atmosphere in the USA or anywhere else. We are JUST AS BAD if we allow our politicians to do this to us. Throw ALL the bums out.

I would rather talk about this line for another ten years rather than waste public dollars in building it.

In that decade (or 2), they will probably spend enough on planning that they could have just built it.

 

[pstogios]

In that decade (or 2), they will probably spend enough on planning that they could have just built it.

This is impossible to believe.

 

[Rainforest]

Well, all 3 main political parties, that together collect > 95% of public vote, believe that Scarborough Subway is a good idea.

If some people still want to rant, whine, and complain about this project, that's their right. Obsession is not a crime.

But we need to be clear that those people act out of their own obsession. They do not represent the public opinion or the public interest.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Well, all 3 main political parties, that together collect > 95% of public vote, believe that Scarborough Subway is a good idea.

If some people still want to rant, whine, and complain about this project, that's their right. Obsession is not a crime.

But we need to be clear that those people act out of their own obsession. They do not represent the public opinion or the public interest.

Just because the parties support it does not mean everyone does. 38 percent is not a majority. Public opinion is mixed on this, that's the truth because there are no subways out there that LRT or Subway is the majority opinion, regardless of what you or I say. However, I'm in favor of both subways at this point because I want a resolution so we can move on to more pressing needs.

i think at this point most just want to see this get built and deal with the results afterwards. its been dragging on way too long and will only drive up the cost
with each month worth of doing nothing.

This is where I am at. Just build both the subways and let's move on.

I don’t understand how the argument “let’s stop talking and just build it” trumps “hey maybe this is a stupid use of extremely limited precious infrastructure funds. so let’s not build it at all”.

??????

Since when did expediency beat out rationality in our democracy?

All parties now believe that?

So we just build whatever, and limit rationality, just because some political actor deems it so?

None of us should ever criticize the ridiculous political atmosphere in the USA or anywhere else. We are JUST AS BAD if we allow our politicians to do this to us. Throw ALL the bums out.

I would rather talk about this line for another ten years rather than waste public dollars in building it.

Because I want to see the entire DRL built before I am 40 and I and the rest of the transit follower are just tired of this debate.