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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

syn said:
Two years ago the cost of the three stop plan was estimated to be $4.3 billion - that's why they switched to a $2 billion, one stop plan. Now that same one stop plan has essentially doubled in cost to about $4 billion (and very possibly more).

Going back to the three stop plan isn't going to cost $5 billion. Based on how far off they were with their estimates a few years ago, it's probably between $6 billion and $7 billion at the very least.

Between that, extending Sheppard and the Crosstown LRT (which Ford wants to bury) and RER we have massive overkill. Spending billions upon billions of dollars making Kennedy the most connected station in the system makes very little sense given the transit needs the rest of the city has.
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Don't Forget the Eglinton East LRT as well. at least that covers most of scarborough.
 
syn said:
Between that, extending Sheppard and the Crosstown LRT (which Ford wants to bury) and RER we have massive overkill. Spending billions upon billions of dollars making Kennedy the most connected station in the system makes very little sense given the transit needs the rest of the city has.
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How dare you use logical arguments, facts or history?

This isn’t about any of that.

This is about Respect For Scarborough.

Don’t you Respect Scarborough? Or, are you part of the Downtown Left Elite Media Conspiracy Against Scarborough?
 
Streety McCarface said:
Let's be honest, the LRT is stupid. If they're going to leave a transfer in there, just expand the SRT to use new Innova trains.
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Even stupider was introducing new transfers to commuters on Sheppard East and the old SMLRT. Also I'm very happy to see a some actual detailed design for latest Eglinton East LRT. Seems like a back room deal that was pushed thru here for LRT technology, as you said there was never a solid case for LRT to SCC when you could extend the BDL on the RT corridor for a bit more (which was requested by Scarborough council to Miller prior) or upgrade the trains with keep the same transfer for far less
 
Adding more stations on the Line 2 extension definitely makes sense. Even though it will cost more money, it will improve the service and attract more riders.

The peak ridership forecast for the 3-station plan was 14,000. Even if that is a bit exaggerated, we can still expect at least 12,000. For the one-station plan, the count goes down to 7,000.

That means, the capital cost per rider will go down if more stops are added, and so will the operation cost per rider as a lot of operational costs are related to the tunnel length.

So, if Mr. Ford borrows and builds those extra stops, that's a good use of money. I am not a fan of Mr. Ford and will not vote for him, but in this particular case, I have no reason to disagree.
 
Now, the Sheppard subway and the EE plans are another matter. The Sheppard extension (as a subway) would sub-optimal/premature at this time.

The idea to put all of EE LRT underground does not make sense at all. This line will be just fine on surface, perhaps with grade separations in a couple of critical points.

I doubt the Ford's government (assuming he gets to form a government) will actually build either of those. The $5 billion they promised don't buy a lot of subways these days, even with some federal and municipal contributions added on top. They will need to fund the updated SSE, and then deal with the Relief Line and Yonge North. All of those 3 are higher priority than Sheppard East or Eglinton East.

The end result is, likely, no progress on those two corridors in the near future. And that's just fine for Sheppard; it can live with bus service until we figure out how to build the rail correctly.

The delay will be unfortunate for Eglinton East though; light rail on that route both makes sense and is widely accepted, and the design has advanced pretty far.
 
Rainforest said:
Now, the Sheppard subway and the EE plans are another matter. The Sheppard extension (as a subway) would sub-optimal/premature at this time.

The idea to put all of EE LRT underground does not make sense at all. This line will be just fine on surface, perhaps with grade separations in a couple of critical points.

I doubt the Ford's government (assuming he gets to form a government) will actually build either of those. The $5 billion they promised don't buy a lot of subways these days, even with some federal and municipal contributions added on top. They will need to fund the updated SSE, and then deal with the Relief Line and Yonge North. All of those 3 are higher priority than Sheppard East or Eglinton East.

The end result is, likely, no progress on those two corridors in the near future. And that's just fine for Sheppard; it can live with bus service until we figure out how to build the rail correctly.

The delay will be unfortunate for Eglinton East though; light rail on that route both makes sense and is widely accepted, and the design has advanced pretty far.
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Could likely be the same deal Brown had in that the Province will swallow the entire subway(s) cost and the City can pay for the LRT's on its own. If that the case there is no excuse not to build EELRT as a tax is already in place with the SSE levy. But the fact Ford wants to still bury the Crosstown is concerning at this stage and leaves much uncertainty
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Don't Forget the Eglinton East LRT as well. at least that covers most of scarborough.
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It's a pretty fantasy map.

I went to the SRT upgrade meetings shortly after starting my career after school. I expect to be retired many years before anything is actually open in Scarborough (especially if Ford tinkers with contract for the surface section of Eglinton LRT).

It's hard to blame government when the electorate itself can't decide that "good enough" is in-fact good enough; also low taxes + expensive to operate/maintain transit aren't compatible.
 
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Sakraycore said:
you mean making STC the most connection station? It would be about as connected as Yonge/Bloor, St.George, and Finch station. So not really the most connected, just well connected.
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Does Yonge & Bloor have RER/GO and LRT connections? How about St. George and Finch stations?

If Ford gets his way, Kennedy will connect to:

-The Eglinton LRT
-The Sheppard subway line
-The Bloor Danforth subway line
-RER/GO

How does spending billions of dollars on infrastructure here:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/T...f0e8793bd6b689!8m2!3d43.7323267!4d-79.2703805

and here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.775...4!1sIc5JDVGiEmhuNt7nYcstpg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

make any sense, especially given other needs across the city?

We don't even have subway lines on King and Queen...but he wants an subway line on Sheppard, with an LRT line just below it on Eglinton? Insanity.
 
syn said:
Does Yonge & Bloor have RER/GO and LRT connections? How about St. George and Finch stations?

If Ford gets his way, Kennedy will connect to:

-The Eglinton LRT
-The Sheppard subway line
-The Bloor Danforth subway line
-RER/GO

How does spending billions of dollars on infrastructure here:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Toronto+Public+Library+-+Kennedy/Eglinton+Library/@43.7318597,-79.269906,3a,60y,86.87h,78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB7sKzX2_aTXSLsJgO00SmQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d4ce179ff42151:0xc8f0e8793bd6b689!8m2!3d43.7323267!4d-79.2703805

and here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.775...4!1sIc5JDVGiEmhuNt7nYcstpg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

make any sense, especially given other needs across the city?

We don't even have subway lines on King and Queen...but he wants an subway line on Sheppard, with an LRT line just below it on Eglinton? Insanity.
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The Centre already exists whether your a fan of the location or not and we have seen new density proposals since the subway was announced. We're spending billions to connect this area no matter and its actually great its one stop away from the transit heaven at Kennedy. Did we need to go with the McCowan deep tunnel? No. Should the Centre be connected seamlessly to the current network. Absolutely. The desire by those who don't live here to hack in and short change every plan in Scarborough is insanity.
 
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Sakraycore said:
Alright my bad, he is actually referring to Kennedy. Anyways I wouldn't put too much stock on what Doug Ford says.
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As opposed to who else is telling the truth? Ford wants the Sheppard line and he would have fairly subway supportive Liberal MPP's even if he happens to get a minority (many polls are showing a majority ATM FWIW). Should be quite easy to pass. Much different than the opposition at council for his brother which made it easy to say he didn't accomplish what he said. The attempts where there pre scandal.
 
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Sakraycore said:
Alright my bad, he is actually referring to Kennedy. Anyways I wouldn't put too much stock on what Doug Ford says.
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Better than Kathleen Wynne's radio silence on Scarborough, she's forsaken them. Too busy pandering to the few guaranteed ridings downtown she has left, I suppose.
 
rbt said:
It's a pretty fantasy map.

I went to the SRT upgrade meetings shortly after starting my career after school. I expect to be retired many years before anything is actually open in Scarborough (especially if Ford tinkers with contract for the surface section of Eglinton LRT).

It's hard to blame government when the electorate itself can't decide that "good enough" is in-fact good enough; also low taxes + expensive to operate/maintain transit aren't compatible.
Click to expand...
Maybe not caving in the people and sticking with the original LRT plan would have helped.
 
syn said:
Does Yonge & Bloor have RER/GO and LRT connections? How about St. George and Finch stations?

If Ford gets his way, Kennedy will connect to:

-The Eglinton LRT
-The Sheppard subway line
-The Bloor Danforth subway line
-RER/GO

How does spending billions of dollars on infrastructure here:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Toronto+Public+Library+-+Kennedy/Eglinton+Library/@43.7318597,-79.269906,3a,60y,86.87h,78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB7sKzX2_aTXSLsJgO00SmQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d4ce179ff42151:0xc8f0e8793bd6b689!8m2!3d43.7323267!4d-79.2703805

and here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.775...4!1sIc5JDVGiEmhuNt7nYcstpg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

make any sense, especially given other needs across the city?

We don't even have subway lines on King and Queen...but he wants an subway line on Sheppard, with an LRT line just below it on Eglinton? Insanity.
Click to expand...

Are you even proofreading the things you post before you hit submit? Lol!

Bloor-Yonge and St George, have going for them interchanges with the two busiest subway lines. Finch is an interregional hub with GO and regional express buses (VIVA). Scarborough should be so lucky.

The East End is only asking for parity with those hubs. East of Ionview the Crosstown will be underground anyway in order to enter Kenendy Stn, so what's the point of your photo? Vic Park/Sheppard is ripe for redevelopment a subway extension would trigger. There's even discussion of extending the DRL to Vic Park/Sheppard, so again what's the point of your photo? Growth cannot and will not be limited to just downtown.

DRL requires big bucks, bigger than what's being offered, so if the budget calls for just $5 billion in additional spending, you had better believe spending it where we can complete a whole line for a generation is the better use of funds. Because even post-DRL there'll still be a need for the Sheppard Subway. Downtown at least has 17 subway stations, a high concentration of streetcar routes and GO connections going for it now. Scarborough has infrequent bus service and a rickshaw toy tram.
 
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