Deamalgamation for Toronto and Hamilton?

[EnviroTO]

Pretty much the only ones complaining are those downtown because they have less control in choosing the mayor. Feeling privileged and entitled is just a fact of life for some. I believe the technical term for that is a Massive Suck.

The people downtown people vote more NDP than anywhere else in the city and they know they are voting for the more heavily taxing party and for the party that delivers greater social benefits. Public services are shared services. Entitled people don't share. They sit in a single occupant vehicle wanting everyone else to get out of the way. People downtown want bike lanes but suburbanites who feel entitled to drive downtown where they have chosen not to live are the most against it. De-amalgamation allows the different parts of the city to set their own priorities. If downtown wants streetscape revitalization, and waterfront projects, while the suburbs are focused on maintaining roads and lowering taxes then why shouldn't both parties get what they want?

 

[ShonTron]

Absolutely, the Megacity is dysfunctional. However I would think the amalgamations that covered exurban areas would be worse - I can't imagine how bad Ottawa is. When one enters the "City of Ottawa" it's like "where is it?"

I have family in outer-suburban Ottawa (southern Kanata). The rural areas, exurbs and villages surrounding the outer suburbs, especially on the south and west sides are not happy being part of Ottawa (North Gower,Osgoode, Richmond, Manotick). They want the return of Carleton County.

I'd be okay with that. Ottawa and Hamilton (and Chatham-Kent and Kawartha Lakes) make little sense as amalgamated municipalities. Sudbury was the only one that made sense as it was implemented. Ottawa should have been the City of Ottawa (Kanata in the west to Orleans in the east to the airport in the south) and the rural town of Carleton County. Victoria County should have been split into 2 or 3, rather than amalgamated into one. Pontypool has little to do with Coboconk. Lindsay should have remained separate, or just amalgamated with the southern townships, Kawartha Lakes should have had Fenelon Falls as its town centre. Chatham-Kent doesn't work, and has hurt places like Wallaceburg.

Toronto made sense in some respects, but was implemented poorly. York and East York should have been merged into Toronto in 1997, and a mega-Metro created instead, but parcelling out the rural municipalities from the suburban/urban municipalities (Oshawa to Burlington to Newmarket, without Georginia, Scugog, Uxbridge, Caledon, etc).

I liked the old proposed regional municipalities as mentioned in Shape of the Suburbs - the Urban Regional Municipality of Mississauga taking in Brampton, Toronto Township, Oakville and Burlington, and the Rural Municipality of Halton-Peel, taking in what is now Caledon, Halton Hills and Milton. That would have worked better than just tinkering with the old counties.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I have family in outer-suburban Ottawa (southern Kanata). The rural areas, exurbs and villages surrounding the outer suburbs, especially on the south and west sides are not happy being part of Ottawa (North Gower,Osgoode, Richmond, Manotick). They want the return of Carleton County.

I'd be okay with that. Ottawa and Hamilton (and Chatham-Kent and Kawartha Lakes) make little sense as amalgamated municipalities. Sudbury was the only one that made sense as it was implemented. Ottawa should have been the City of Ottawa (Kanata in the west to Orleans in the east to the airport in the south) and the rural town of Carleton County. Victoria County should have been split into 2 or 3, rather than amalgamated into one. Pontypool has little to do with Coboconk. Lindsay should have remained separate, or just amalgamated with the southern townships, Kawartha Lakes should have had Fenelon Falls as its town centre. Chatham-Kent doesn't work, and has hurt places like Wallaceburg.

Toronto made sense in some respects, but was implemented poorly. York and East York should have been merged into Toronto in 1997, and a mega-Metro created instead, but parcelling out the rural municipalities from the suburban/urban municipalities (Oshawa to Burlington to Newmarket, without Georginia, Scugog, Uxbridge, Caledon, etc).

I liked the old proposed regional municipalities as mentioned in Shape of the Suburbs - the Urban Regional Municipality of Mississauga taking in Brampton, Toronto Township, Oakville and Burlington, and the Rural Municipality of Halton-Peel, taking in what is now Caledon, Halton Hills and Milton. That would have worked better than just tinkering with the old counties.

We comnplain about Toronto but Ottawa was the worst. Navan, Fitzroy, etc are 45 min from downtown. Nothing to do with Ottawa.

 

[Jonny5]

The Hamilton urban area had become continuous through about 5 different towns and cities. It made sense to unite them, but not the vast rural areas surrounding them. The city really is unwildly and it always amazes me seeing the "Welcome To Hamilton" sign on Highway 6 just a few minutes off the 401, or how Waterdown is so isolated from the rest of the city.

The revenge of the suburbs was the area rating of property taxes which really hurt the downtown and then led to a sprawl boom around the fringe of the city. Some really awful developments went up in Mt. Hope, Binbrook and Glabrook because of that. Though I see council figured out how to game the system now. Running little used bus routes all over just for the purpose of qualifying areas for transit tax.

 

[TOareaFan]

The city state of Toronto?

I'd say that the two cities should be brought back down to their smaller sections (maybe rejig a couple boundaries,) but the entire region of the GTA or maybe even the GGH should go under one large government. Not a province, but a step up from smaller city councils.

Cause what we all need in our lives is another level of government! Another level that tells us that "it is not their jurisdiction or they would fix it"! Another level of government that has to dip into the tax base just to fund its own existance thus, either, taking money out of actual operating budgets or raising taxes!

 

[Lone Primate]

The people downtown people vote more NDP than anywhere else in the city and they know they are voting for the more heavily taxing party and for the party that delivers greater social benefits. Public services are shared services. Entitled people don't share. They sit in a single occupant vehicle wanting everyone else to get out of the way. People downtown want bike lanes but suburbanites who feel entitled to drive downtown where they have chosen not to live are the most against it. De-amalgamation allows the different parts of the city to set their own priorities. If downtown wants streetscape revitalization, and waterfront projects, while the suburbs are focused on maintaining roads and lowering taxes then why shouldn't both parties get what they want?

Tell me, Enviro... do you feel at all "entitled" to use the airport you've chosen not to live near, which isn't even in the town you live in?

 

[ssiguy2]

Th situation in Hamilton is completely different. The original city still has the bulk of the population unlike Toronto.
In Hamilton the city engulfed the suburbs while in Toronto it seems to be the other way around.
BTW...................Toronto bitched and moaned for decades about getting a new City of Toronto Act and now that it finally has it what have they done with it?
I haven't heard of any change in the bar hours or what about gas taxes or is this yet another example of City Hall inertia?

 

[Lone Primate]

Cause what we all need in our lives is another level of government! Another level that tells us that "it is not their jurisdiction or they would fix it"!

Yes. Exactly. I'll give you an example.

In 1953, somebody arbitrarily drew a line along Steeles Avenue, bisecting York County. South of it became Metropolitan Toronto. North of it stayed whatever. Many many years later, I wound up living south of that line, but working north of it. I happened to live walking distance from a bus line that -- hear the angels sing! -- went right up the street I worked on and stopped right in front of the building I worked in. But I never once took the bus to work. Why?

Because Toronto and York decided that I had to pay a second fare just to cross Steeles. And when I did the math, gas was actually cheaper. I had the car; I was already paying for it and the insurance; to pay MORE money for a longer trip and lose the utitilty at lunch time and on the way home just didn't make sense. 15 minutes of putting up with manic drivers on the road, and white-knuckle trips in the snow, for ten years, all because someone drew a line years before I was even born, and there was no central authority to point out that that was ludicrous when I could have traveled over an hour on one fare to either Islington or Port Union.

A GTA council makes sense for the things we actually do all have in common... say, transit, cops, and fire. Someday, soon, we've got to come to the realization that the city is these five or six million people here, not lines people drew sixty years ago.

 

[GraphicMatt]

But there are always going to be arbitrary lines.

I worry that more levels of municipal government will allow the Ontario government to abdicate responsibility while still taking in significant revenue through income tax.

 

[Lone Primate]

But there are always going to be arbitrary lines.

Right, and in full knowledge of that, we adjust them periodically, so that they're temporarily not arbitrary. For example, some people object to the rural fringe of Hamilton-Wentworth being amalgamated into Hamilton. But in a practical upshot, this means the planning for the development in these areas, with the demands made on infrastructure, are now managed by an entity able to handle that and a tax base that can move resources to facilitate the growth of the supporting infrastructure. To imagine that that growth isn't going to come is simply ignoring reality. For pretty much the same reason, Metro Toronto was created. Obviously there were rough spots and disagreements, but overall we wound up with well-managed growth and one of North America's most livable cities. Amalgamation in these circumstances is a good idea; the trick is ensuring that the people who guide the process are equal to the task. But that's a matter of human vagueries and it always will be, unfortunately.

I worry that more levels of municipal government will allow the Ontario government to abdicate responsibility while still taking in significant revenue through income tax.

Fair enough, but what responsibilities does Ontario have for transit, police, or firefighters, which were the services I just mentioned would make sense to be run by a GTA council? There's nothing to abdicate in those areas with the possible exception of GO Transit.

 

[TOareaFan]

Yes. Exactly. I'll give you an example.

In 1953, somebody arbitrarily drew a line along Steeles Avenue, bisecting York County. South of it became Metropolitan Toronto. North of it stayed whatever. Many many years later, I wound up living south of that line, but working north of it. I happened to live walking distance from a bus line that -- hear the angels sing! -- went right up the street I worked on and stopped right in front of the building I worked in. But I never once took the bus to work. Why?

Because Toronto and York decided that I had to pay a second fare just to cross Steeles. And when I did the math, gas was actually cheaper. I had the car; I was already paying for it and the insurance; to pay MORE money for a longer trip and lose the utitilty at lunch time and on the way home just didn't make sense. 15 minutes of putting up with manic drivers on the road, and white-knuckle trips in the snow, for ten years, all because someone drew a line years before I was even born, and there was no central authority to point out that that was ludicrous when I could have traveled over an hour on one fare to either Islington or Port Union.

A GTA council makes sense for the things we actually do all have in common... say, transit, cops, and fire. Someday, soon, we've got to come to the realization that the city is these five or six million people here, not lines people drew sixty years ago.

Then combine them......join Toronto and Peel and Durham and Halton and York.....if we have that much commonality join them....but don't foist another layer of government on us....I get that we need government and it has a cost (I am not some ultra right slash governments to death sort of guy) I just think you get to a point when government becomes an industry of its own and far too much of the tax intake (not even commenting on the level of the tax intake) is being used just to sustain government.

If there is not enough commonality of those regions and the city of Toronto, then there is no reason to combine them and, I would suggest, no reason to co-ordinate their services via another level of government. Yes there will always be head-scratching issues at the margins (like the personal example you gave) but they should not make the decision.

 

[archanfel]

Then combine them......join Toronto and Peel and Durham and Halton and York.....if we have that much commonality join them....but don't foist another layer of government on us....I get that we need government and it has a cost (I am not some ultra right slash governments to death sort of guy) I just think you get to a point when government becomes an industry of its own and far too much of the tax intake (not even commenting on the level of the tax intake) is being used just to sustain government.

If there is not enough commonality of those regions and the city of Toronto, then there is no reason to combine them and, I would suggest, no reason to co-ordinate their services via another level of government. Yes there will always be head-scratching issues at the margins (like the personal example you gave) but they should not make the decision.

Then how do you solve these issues at the margins? Could VIVA be a good model?

 

[TOareaFan]

Then how do you solve these issues at the margins? Could VIVA be a good model?

Possibly (I would have to understand more about how VIVA solves that problem)......I think some sort of fare integration through the use of a smartcard type of payment system is probably closer but, to be honest, not all problems are solvable......at least, not at a reasonable cost.

 

[GenerationW]

If downtown wants streetscape revitalization, and waterfront projects, while the suburbs are focused on maintaining roads and lowering taxes then why shouldn't both parties get what they want?

If you can find someone to rally the troops behind a downtown de-amalgamation movement, knock yourself out. I just don't see it ever happening.

 

[Glen]

The people downtown people vote more NDP than anywhere else in the city and they know they are voting for the more heavily taxing party and for the party that delivers greater social benefits.

You forgot to mention that they support higher taxes on other people, not themselves.