Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[RPM]

What is absurd is your point of view, which not only is very much mistaken but unfortunately shared by a lot of people.

What makes you think that a subway will last 75 years? Vehicles are designed to last 30, signal systems 40 to 50. Power systems are in the same region. Rails get replaced every 20 to 30 depending on use. The only thing that can last 75 years is the structure, and even that's no promise - those tunnels north of Eglinton aren't anywhere close to 50, nevermind 75.

The SRT was the right idea, built in the wrong way. It may have ended up being more expensive than a subway was, but the idea was that you can get a light, fast and inexpensive (to build and run) transit system for far less than a subway. And that idea still reigns true today - a subway is never going to be necessary to handle the crowds north-east of Kennedy Station in any of our lifetimes, or those of our children.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

it's the right idea ? cost as much... already past it's life span...
yeah... if your in the construction business it's the right idea...

so pretty much it's proven light rail is not the answer... lesson learned
gotcha

 

[kEiThZ]

What if that extra billion dollars was instead spent on extending the SRT to Finch and Neilson? Or on building the eastern half of the Midtown GO line, with all day service, to at least Malvern? Would you prefer either of those two far more worth while and rational transit projects instead of this partisan vote grabbing reelection exercise?

And what are the time savings on this subway compared to the planned LRT for you?

I've always maintained that the alternative should have been a go big or go home kinda play. Once, they decided to truncate the LRT and have it cut short at Malvern, it was always going to be pointless, since most of the Malvern bus routes would have to be severely mangled to serve the new terminus. Once they cut that, the majority of Malvern, Morningside Heights, etc. became better off with the subway plan.

And I've also, always maintained that investing in GO actually offers the region as a whole, more bang for the buck than any single LRT line could. Indeed, I'd support putting all the LRT spending into turning GO into a proper, all-day, two-way, electrified suburban rail service. But this is useless without full fare and service integration. And that's a whole other problem.

All that said, I support any plan that actually makes people comfortable with using transit. It's my personal opinion that transit geeks forget that those ridership numbers have real people who live and work and pay taxes behind them. And sometimes, what makes sense with my or your math may not actually make sense when the subjective is taken into account. And this is one of those scenarios. $1 billion may well be a small price to pay to ensure that Scarborough placated on all future transit projects.

As for the vote grabbing assertion, I don't get it. It's no more or less of a vote-getting exercise than the original Transit City plan of having a line touch nearly every single ward in the city so every councillor would have something to brag about at election time.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I love the slogan

Ford actually supports the DRL.

And by support, I mean he's said something like this when asked about the DRL: "I support subways no matter where they are".

When they were young...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No, political interference in transit is coming back to haunt us, and it is happening again. If it was built as a light rail line originally there would be no problems with capacity or acquiring compatible replacement vehicles necessitating replacement of the line, and it likely would have been extended a long time ago.

They were not cheap with building the SRT, political interference caused a large escalation in costs

Bingo.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If the McCowan corridor is used for the Bloor-Danforth eastern extension, what is to happen with the current Scarborough RT right-of-way?

Great location for a bicycle and e-bike path! Keep the bridges and underpasses. Though I think getting bikes down from the elevated portions maybe a problem. Going down would be fast, going up will be a problem.

Definitely shouldn't demolish it. Could be used for a future transit line. Convert it to a park or something.

Or maybe even extend it to the Toronto Zoo Monorail! Create one mega sized abandoned elevated line.

 

[BurlOak]

If I look at what Rob Ford has supported, it appears obvious that the only stipulation was to remove the transfer at Kennedy. He supported the combined SRL/ECLRT (underground), the Provinces Subway extension, and the City Subway extension.

The problem is that he went to the transit experts at Metrolinx, represented through the Minister of Transportation and the Liberal Premier. They told Ford that the solution must involve LRT, since the vehicles were already ordered, and the only way to have a transfer-free ride was to spend an additional $2B to tunnel the ECLRT from Kennedy to Brentcliffe.

Two and a half years later, the transit experts at Metrolinx, represented through the Minister of Transportation and the Liberal Premier, told Ford (and City Council) that the best solution would NOT involve LRT, but subway. The best way to have a transfer-free ride was to have the subway follow the SRT corridor from Kennedy to STC - even though it was repeatedly stated over the past few years that it was impossible to make the curve.

Then the transit experts at TTC, represented through Chair Karen Stintz, told Ford (and City Council) that the best solution would NOT involve the LRT that TTC supported earlier, but subway. The only way to have a transfer-free ride was to have the subway follow Eglinton to McCowan to STC and Sheppard, for an additional cost of $1.0B to $1.5B - even though the TTC essentially studied this option in 2006 and found it by far the least feasible.

Ford has shown great flexibility, but unfortunately those in charge of the transit expertise have let him and the citizens of Toronto down. Why they could not come up with a better solution to eliminate the transfer is beyond me. Either the planners at Metrolinx and TTC are incompetent, or their political representatives (namely the Provincial Liberals and Karen Stintz) have been playing politics instead of allowing the best solution to be released for discussion and acceptance.

 

[Tulse]

The corridor is the subway line, not the street.

How is your definition of "corridor" not circular? The Spadina line goes down Spadina...until it doesn't.

My point is simply that various spots on the current subway force transfers to continue along the same direction. (Indeed, it's arguable whether the SRT is on the same "corridor" as the BD line, as the BD line serves primarily as an east-west artery, whereas the SRT primarily goes north. One could argue that the idealized "corridor" of the east BD line should probably be Danforth to Kingston Road.)

If the SRT were actually a BRT, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

 

[lead82]

I for one am glad that the federal government put up some money. Yes it is a vote buying exercise but you know what, at the end of the day, that is the system we have got. Democracy and partisan politics are messy and inefficient. Let's be optimistic. Toronto got some firm funding for transit, it should be a happy day. Let's stop debating the technology, viability, routes. Enough is enough.
Let's get behind this route and get it built. It offers Scarborough a subway that goes deep enough and connects to an LRT on Sheppard. It eliminates a transfer that everyone hates and facilitates a smooth transition from RT to subway during construction without years on busses. The ride will be slightly faster and be me comfortable as stations will be underground.

I am hoping that once this route gets settled Scarborough will be satisfied so that we can move on and built political support for the downtown line. We need dedicated funding and continue building momentum.

Its 2013, we are building or about to build 2 subway extensions: Spadina, Scarborough, and 3 long LRT lines: Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch. Add to this better GO and an express train to Pearson and maybe, just maybe we can finally see improved transit in 5-10 years. It took a long time in coming but slowly we will get there. As projects come online we will get more momentum to keep expanding. It's not like any one of these lines will solve anything. However, out it all together and we start to see improved transit across the region to slowly emerge.

 

[junctionist]

Definitely shouldn't demolish it. Could be used for a future transit line. Convert it to a park or something.

I want to see a Scarborough High Line park.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I want to see a Scarborough High Line park.

That's the idea. The park is beautiful:

Wish we had one downtown.

 

[nfitz]

I don't know. I like bike paths, and all, but converting a fully-functioning heavy rail rapid transit line into a bike corridor reminds me of:

Funnily enough, that reminds me of something:

 

[TheTigerMaster]

A thousand years from now tourists from all over the world will pay tens of thousands of dollars to look at those pillars. They'll take photos and it will be hailed as great examples of our architecture. They'll speculate about what the purpose was for and likely come to the conclusion that it was used to worship our now ancient gods, or perhaps to track the progression of the plants.

 

[MisterF]

How is your definition of "corridor" not circular? The Spadina line goes down Spadina...until it doesn't.

My point is simply that various spots on the current subway force transfers to continue along the same direction. (Indeed, it's arguable whether the SRT is on the same "corridor" as the BD line, as the BD line serves primarily as an east-west artery, whereas the SRT primarily goes north. One could argue that the idealized "corridor" of the east BD line should probably be Danforth to Kingston Road.)

If the SRT were actually a BRT, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

You're basing this on the fact that the line has "Spadina" in its name? I wouldn't consider that relevant - it could just as easily be called the Yellow Line. An "idealized" straight line following a single street might look nice on a map, but actual travel corridors aren't so cut and dry. Subways rarely go in straight lines; they twist and turn to hit different nodes and reflect where people are travelling. They follow multiple streets along the route, all the while forming a single transit corridor.

 

[GenerationW]

Then it's just another line. Relief indicates it should be relieving Yonge. It should have fewer stops.

It's a relief line and it's just another line. It should have however many stops they feel are needed. The University line relieved Yonge -- they didn't build it with a lot fewer stops.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

If I look at what Rob Ford has supported, it appears obvious that the only stipulation was to remove the transfer at Kennedy. He supported the combined SRL/ECLRT (underground), the Provinces Subway extension, and the City Subway extension.

You are imagining an alternate history here. Ford has never so much as said the word transfer. All he cares about is being able to say he built a subway. When he was campaigning his transit plan had no Eglinton line and the SRT converted to subway (NOT an extension of Bloor-Danforth but a new separate line). Once he got elected he announced his top priority was Sheppard and that he was willing to scrap every other transit project to get it finished. When the province announced the new combined Crosstown line he actually said it was as good as a subway since it was fully separated from traffic. Whether or not it was transfer free didn't enter into his rhetoric. Finally he has been on board with every subway proposal in the city since then, regardless of where it goes and what it does. There's no indication that he would reject a subway plan that involved a Kennedy transfer and frankly that would be completely out of character for him. He's shown in council that he barely knows the details of the plans he's talking about. Why should he care about this specific a detail when he doesn't even know whether or not the Scarborough LRT runs in traffic?

If Ford seems flexible it's because his goals are ridiculously simplistic. He made a promise to build subways and he wants to be able to say he's building a subway. That's it. People on this forum might care about transfers but politicians in the real world do not. At best they only claim to do so when it helps justify their pet projects. Stintz et al didn't care about transfers in the slightest during the first big Transit City debate of Ford's term. They were more than happy to have one at Don Mills and another at Kennedy for example. But once it became politically advantageous for them to support the BD extension all of a sudden the Kennedy transfer had to be eliminated at any cost.

The people pulling the strings on this project all have elections coming up in the next year or so and they are running scared. That is the most important thing to them right now. They care about votes, not transit planning, and if you project your own transit planning interests onto them you're just going to be fooling yourself.