Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[W. K. Lis]

Ottawa's Transitway is superior to typical BRT with signal priority like Viva Rapidways. It's similar to the eastern portion of the Mississauga Transitway, a super2 for buses with no at grade crossing. A lot of people will fall in love with them if they have them in TO.


If a transitway is built for isolated operation (fully grade separated), I don't see why they can't operate bi-articulated buses. It could be deem a private road (like a subway with tires) that can bypass the HTA.

Anyways, there isn't that many places to built super2 grade transitway in Toronto. Public transit with the TTC is always based on feeder buses to trunk rail transit lines since the beginning of existence. First with trunk streetcar line, later subways. There was never the idea of running bus routes from different parts of the city to downtown. The allow the system to evolve to the current easy to navigate grid system which help build the non commuting ridership base. The drawback with a grid system is it takes significantly longer to get from the suburbs to the core. Instead of travelling diagonally, it's always E/W and S/N.

The Montréal & Paris Metro could be called a "bus train", since they use rubber tires (and steel wheels to guide them). However, they don't call them buses. The bad news, they can't be used outdoors, have to be covered, underground, or sheltered.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

On that note of people falling in love with high end BRT if we could get some, this is a big part of why I think we should prioritize the Yonge to Unionville section of the 407 busway.

 

[Steve X]

The Montréal & Paris Metro could be called a "bus train", since they use rubber tires (and steel wheels to guide them). However, they don't call them buses. The bad news, they can't be used outdoors, have to be covered, underground, or sheltered.

I was thinking of a very long road vehicle (bi or tri articulated buses) on it's own transitway. Like the ones they are using in China and other places. They would have similar capacity as LRVs. Rubber tired trains on tracks aren't buses. They would be able to run regular buses on the same roadway when ridership is lower.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Bi-articulated buses DO ave some applications, but from what I've seen most operators aren't in love with their costs... 50ft single unit seems to be the current preference where possible, and is something I really would like to see authorized in Ontario. The current situation is honestly fairly obnoxious, with 53ft trailers legal and common, but a 45ft limit on buses for no reason I've found beyond no one having bothered to update the regulations.

 

[Johnny Au]

Bi-articulated buses DO ave some applications, but from what I've seen most operators aren't in love with their costs... 50ft single unit seems to be the current preference where possible, and is something I really would like to see authorized in Ontario. The current situation is honestly fairly obnoxious, with 53ft trailers legal and common, but a 45ft limit on buses for no reason I've found beyond no one having bothered to update the regulations.

...let alone those Chinese elevated buses that were proposed.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Worth nothing that the RFP for the Ontario Line isn't scheduled to close until after the next election. Given that the OL is at a far more advanced stage than the SSE, which still doesn't have anything as basic as a list of stations or general alignment, it seems extraordinarily unlikely that any SSE RFP would close prior to the next election. And of course that means it likely will not be built, unless the next government elects to continue the RFP process.

Also worth noting again that we are now a third through this government's term in office, and they've released zero details on this project. It's not looking good.

 

[OneCity]

And of course that means it likely will not be built, unless the next government elects to continue the RFP process.

A line that is supported by all Provincial parties, with a fully expired RT and with an actual efficient design with stops wont go to RFP when ready?

Ya OK.

 

[Neutrino]

^Support in the form of election promises to get votes is a far cry from any party actually building the line. Talk is cheap.

 

[pstogios]

A line that is supported by all Provincial parties, with a fully expired RT and with an actual efficient design with stops wont go to RFP when ready?

Ya OK.

Yet more delusion. TigerMaster stated facts. And yet again, coffey1 makes up some garbage paranoid manifestations which he thinks are real arguments just because this line would make his personal commute 5 minutes faster. Reality is just too hard for some people to accept.

This line is a) politically toxic, b) unnecessary, c) extremely over-priced, d) extremely over-built in current designs and e) diverts limited infrastructure dollars away from truly necessary projects

When such stars align, governments have a way of delaying and burrowing such projects away from the public eye. That’s what’s happening here.

 

[pstogios]

^Support in the form of election promises to get votes is a far cry from any party actually building the line. Talk is cheap.

And the subways subways subways crowd will always fall for such cheap political pandering.

 

[Neutrino]

And the subways subways subways crowd will always fall for such cheap political pandering.

It's more nuanced than that. Congestion and transit in this city are bad so I can understand people's desire for something to be built. Of course, that doesn't mean the massive cost is justified.

 

[OneCity]

^Support in the form of election promises to get votes is a far cry from any party actually building the line. Talk is cheap.

The Conservatives have timed this line (and moreso OL) for maximum political gain but aside from that its a go on all levels. When the cheap talk lines up in all parties its as concrete as it gets. Timing is everything

This isnt the City of Toronto planning anymore where the line is constantly under attack from outside politicians. There are no other alternatives of interest from any party at the Provincial level . When you have such a heavily supported line which has gone far past a critical stage of implementation and more importantly for once in a reasonably detailed designed state that is ready to go on the street then id say there extremely high odds the line will get built.

Those guessing (possibly hoping) to see this line fail and moreso detest all things Ford likely dont want to hear this but the Conservatives have set up the timing of next priority lines (SSE, OL & Yonge) so if anyone cancels them they will be fully crucified in the court of public opinion as not only hypocrites but more importantly it will go full steam against local support. Unless another party wants to do what Rob did minus have sizable local support at a far more critical stage its all a go. The temptation will be there to rip up as both Liberals and NDP parties really dont want to leave the legacy of a Fords fingerprint on our most important transit projects but the Cons have played the hand really well in terms of the politics.

The OL had a slight chance of being ripped up and the Conservative timed it accordingly. The SSE and Yonge are more then safe.

 

[Rainforest]

SSE is certainly needed, and it is not in any way "toxic" (except with a few haters that do not represent any sizeable segment of voters), but the political football around it doesn't look good. Any delay past the next election day is a risk. SSE would be safier, even though with one stop only, had the provincial Liberals remain in power for 4 more years. It would be under construction and past any cancellation attempts.

It will be quite ironic if the Ford's government ends up failing to build SSE despite having substantial voter support in the areas that benefit from SSE, and yet succeeds in building the OL through the areas that yield no seats to the Cons. That might happen, just because of the relative timing of the projects.

 

[OneCity]

SSE is certainly needed, and it is not in any way "toxic" (except with a few haters that do not represent any sizeable segment of voters), but the political football around it doesn't look good. Any delay past the next election day is a risk. SSE would be safier, even though with one stop only, had the provincial Liberals remain in power for 4 more years. It would be under construction and past any cancellation attempts.

It will be quite ironic if the Ford's government ends up failing to build SSE despite having substantial voter support in the areas that benefit from SSE, and yet succeeds in building the OL through the areas that yield no seats to the Cons. That might happen, just because of the relative timing of the projects.

Both lines should be too far along to overturn. The OL had to be pushed ahead politicaly otherwise the Left parties would have attempted to revert back to the original RL. Still might get intersting there because there always has to be some 'battle' but the SSE will be in its most supportable form to date and will have minimal risk come next election with no aggressive opposition.

Realistically the one stop subway should never even been a proposal worth considering to begin with. It had to be fixed to some extent. I wish they had massaged the previous designed a little better but they want max. politcal gain alongside the effort.

And while the delays are ironic In general for Ford and carry some optical risk for his own re-election, most will be happy with the design and an advancement of the Sheppard subway to preliminary design. I really have no issue seeing this line staged in the current timeline so long as it's moving along with a reasonable detailed design for once.

 

[sixrings]

SSE is certainly needed, and it is not in any way "toxic" (except with a few haters that do not represent any sizeable segment of voters), but the political football around it doesn't look good. Any delay past the next election day is a risk. SSE would be safier, even though with one stop only, had the provincial Liberals remain in power for 4 more years. It would be under construction and past any cancellation attempts.

It will be quite ironic if the Ford's government ends up failing to build SSE despite having substantial voter support in the areas that benefit from SSE, and yet succeeds in building the OL through the areas that yield no seats to the Cons. That might happen, just because of the relative timing of the projects.

I didn't like the one stop subway but I considered it a compromise and was ok with it. The costs balloon again I really don't care if it's cancelled and all Scarborough gets is brt. Hey brt works in Ottawa. Why not Scarborough. Are they more important than the country's capital?