Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[ViveleCanada]

Given the huge gaps between the stations on this particular extension, there is a real opportunity for the city to untangle the mess of bus lines running into Scarborough Town Centre and move towards a more natural grid in Scarborough (assuming the 3 stop plan is still a go). I don't think this particular extension would see the low ridership as on Sheppard, given it's connecting to a major employment zone, but it could do wonders in refining the bus network in Scarborough if planned properly.

 

[Rainforest]

I wouldn't say the article is at all saying don't build subways in the suburbs, but that subways are built in areas without adequate density and planning to support that investment. Besides Sheppard not being terribly walkable and stations not all properly integrated into developments can contribute to its lack of success it's also because it's too short a line to really serve a purpose at this point.

I think the article was written without a proper research on the topic. The authors seem to think that opinions like "may / may not translate into an increased subway ridership" they heard from some unspecified third parties make a good substitute for the actual ridership projections.

One can support or not support subway in the suburbs, but there is no point posting an article on the matter if the article carries no useful information.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Not to mention that Toronto's subway ridership is driven by feeder buses, not residential density (especially in the suburbs).

Before the subways, feeder (bus) routes fed the streetcar routes.

From link.

 

[nfitz]

Before the subways, feeder (bus) routes fed the streetcar routes.

By design or chance? A lot of the streetcar lines went to the City of Toronto limits, and then buses running outside of the city ran to the loops at the city boundary.

I wonder how those routes that were outside of the city were funded? Entirely from the farebox? Or were there subsidies by the non-Toronto governments?

 

[44 North]

Except it wouldn't, Sheppard east should just stay as a BRT route until the ridership justifies the eastern extension, there are already too many transfers along that corridor. We all have to keep in mind that Sheppard itself was never envisioned to be this short and stubby, it was a part of a bigger plan that would have seen the line run from Sheppard West to the STC, with an Eglinton West subway. Had these plans come to fruition we may be having a different discussion, but right now the constant bashing of the line doesn't help anyone, especially since the city has bigger capital projects to worry about. A lot of the line's issues are the fault of the city's own practices and ridership has a huge potential to grow along the corridor (especially with the increases in gas prices and the available housing up there). Let's see what happens.

Also, no city in North America should be bitching about 50K PPD on a 5.5 km line, it's small compared to the rest of the city, sure, but compared to the rest of North America, it's pretty high. Public transit is public, it shouldn't have to operate at a huge profit in order to be sustainable. Vancouver's Canada Line is a metro and sees 150K passengers over 20 km, the expo lines sees 290K passengers over 36.5 km, and the Millennium line sees 183.5K passengers over 25.5 km. Montreal's numbers are a bit weirder but it's not uncommon to see stations with riderships around 4-6K PPD. https://journalmetro.com/dossiers/l...s-de-metro-les-plus-et-les-moins-frequentees/ Bessarion might have been too soon, but the entire line shouldn't be given shit for that.

50k for 5.5km definitely is decent. But I feel you're implying that potential ridership is proportionate to length. As in, if we extend it by 10km it will automatically have 150k riders and 3x the peak volume.

Shitting on Sheppard is apt for no other reason than it's grossly overbuilt. Doesn't mean there isn't solid ridership, that rapid transit isn't/wasn't warranted, or that stations like Bessarion shouldn't exist. Ridership is good, rt is wise, and locales like Bessarion need stations. The problem is that it's built for 6-car and +30k pphpd. That was not and is never needed on the corridor, not even close. It was the nuclear option and the line has never been completed because of its largess. You cite Expo, Canada, and Millennium, but those are prime examples of what could've been built. Subways, but scaled down appropriately and thus able see that vision of a line from Downsview to SC realized.

And if you do argue that building for 6-car and ~34,000 peak direction riders was the right move, definitely remind the people riding this "temporary" and nonexistent BRT, making the transfers, or sitting in traffic on the 401. Because they've waited a long time for an extension and they'll be waiting a lot longer. Since the concept of a northern crosstown goes back to the 60s, and 2030 is at best when we can finish the line, the wait is what 60yrs?

 

[syn]

That article is obvious baiting. Many stations on the two major subway lines are underachievers too yet no one is complaining about their existence. It just that everything associated with the Sheppard Line and building subways in the suburbs in general gets observed under a microscope even though these lines expansions would prove to be far more affordable per kilometre than the DRL/Ontario Line cost estimates ever could hope to be. Oh and an aside, let's stop comparing the ridership levels of a 5.4 km subway line with 5 stops to a 14 kilometre streetcar route with 30+ stops please. It's deceptive.

What's obvious is that everything transit experts predicted before the Sheppard Line was built has come true.

This full fledged subway has comparable ridership to the Spadina Streetcar - a surface route of similar length, running parallel to the University Line. Overall ridership on the line has remained relatively stagnant for the past decade.

Joe Pantalone, a major supporter of the Sheppard Subway in the 90s, had this to say a few years ago:

"The expectation of [Sheppard] clearly has not been met, because the ridership is a fraction of what it was supposed to have been by now. That, in a way, has provided a lesson ... that subway construction in areas where there is not the capacity to support it really doesn't make any sense."

Scarborough could have it's own version of the Ontario Line running right now. Instead, the 'respect for Scarborough' subway has been delayed again (probably so it can be used as an election ploy) and will in no way, shape or form justify it's cost when it does open. I wouldn't be shocked if there's another delay, and it certainly will cost quite a bit more than the $5.5 billion number Ford provided.

I applaud Pantalone for realizing he was wrong and shifting his views accordingly when faced with evidence and reality. It's too bad more politicians and citizens can't do the same.

 

[syn]

By design or chance? A lot of the streetcar lines went to the City of Toronto limits, and then buses running outside of the city ran to the loops at the city boundary.

I wonder how those routes that were outside of the city were funded? Entirely from the farebox? Or were there subsidies by the non-Toronto governments?

The TTC was financially self sufficient until the provincial government mandated that they had to provide service to suburban areas. This mandate included a provincial subsidy to offset the cost of servicing low density suburbs.

I don't think it's hard to figure out why bus service is so prominent in the suburubs - there isn't enough density to support higher order transit.

 

[OneCity]

Wasted time trying not to extend the stub is the bigger enemy here and debating capacity at this stage to hack in other technologies with transfers to save some short term funds is only going to backfire over and over. And cost of more in the long run

Whether you like it or not, or are upset the subway can handle more capacity than is required, it is what was built. Thank god the Province will now have control to get the noisy opposition out the way so we can move forward to extend the subway line to the Centre as it should

Finally

 

[44 North]

Wasted time trying not to extend the stub is the bigger enemy here and debating capacity at this stage to hack in other technologies with transfers to save some short term funds is only going to backfire over and over. And cost of more in the long run

Whether you like it or not, or are upset the subway can handle more capacity than is required, it is what was built. Thank god the Province will now have control to get the noisy opposition out the way so we can move forward to extend the subway line to the Centre as it should

Finally

Oh boy, you've fallen for the politicking hook line and sinker eh? They promised they're gonna git it built, that means they're gonna git it built. That simple, Doug's doodle literally says it!

Big subway promises and aversion to big-spense subway building is a forte of the provincial government. And that's under R and L governments a lot more liberal in their spending. Recall ICTS, aware of what that was? A solution to subway building to save on subway building. Then next government says scrap that, we'll build your subways costs be damned. Then little until a next government trots the same line. Wash rinse repeat a few times. Let's Move, Move Ontario, Big Move, Get Ontario Moving. See a pattern? Do you have a comprehension of costs?

That you're thanking god because you believe a weird and proudly spendthrift gov't who's base is the opposite of urban will build all the urban goodies they promise comes across as childish imo. If you were open to different concepts of what could exist is one thing. Even if for discussion's sake. But you're expecting a train with excess capacity served on a platter for little reason than to spite the city you live in, create division, and put past parties in their place is a weird mentality.

 

[Hopkins123]

What's obvious is that everything transit experts predicted before the Sheppard Line was built has come true.

Joe Pantalone, a major supporter of the Sheppard Subway in the 90s, had this to say a few years ago:

"The expectation of [Sheppard] clearly has not been met, because the ridership is a fraction of what it was supposed to have been by now. That, in a way, has provided a lesson ... that subway construction in areas where there is not the capacity to support it really doesn't make any sense."

Gee, I wonder why it failed to meet ridership targets and projections? Couldn't be because it's the shortest line with the fewest stops of any of the four rapid transit lines, I suppose. Couldn't be because the condo boom is not done yet, there's still all those Canadian Tire lands to redevelop. Cause and effect. Phase 1 of the YUS stretched over 8kms with 12 stops with immediate plans for further expansion. Phase 1 of the BD Line went from Keele all the way east to Woodbine (20 stations!), again with immediate construction to add-on additional segments.

Sheppard Line "failed" precisely because the TTC and the City has done everything it its power to tarnish it as a failure. By North American standards ~50,000 daily ridership is still damn good, btw. Let's you visit the MidWest or Mid-Atlantic States to see some real underachieving metro systems. A Phase 1 Sheppard Line that stretched from Downsview to say Agincourt would have likely been a massive success with all the transfer traffic feeding into from Dufferin, Bathurst, Vic Park, Warden and Kennedy buses. That it, along with the Scarborough BD extension, have been allowed to become political hot potatoes instead of actual priorities for any sitting government as of right now is a shame to say the very least. And nothing you need gloat over.

 

[OneCity]

Oh boy, you've fallen for the politicking hook line and sinker eh? They promised they're gonna git it built, that means they're gonna git it built. That simple, Doug's doodle literally says it!

Big subway promises and aversion to big-spense subway building is a forte of the provincial government. And that's under R and L governments a lot more liberal in their spending. Recall ICTS, aware of what that was? A solution to subway building to save on subway building. Then next government says scrap that, we'll build your subways costs be damned. Then little until a next government trots the same line. Wash rinse repeat a few times. Let's Move, Move Ontario, Big Move, Get Ontario Moving. See a pattern? Do you have a comprehension of costs?

That you're thanking god because you believe a weird and proudly spendthrift gov't who's base is the opposite of urban will build all the urban goodies they promise comes across as childish imo. If you were open to different concepts of what could exist is one thing. Even if for discussion's sake. But you're expecting a train with excess capacity served on a platter for little reason than to spite the city you live in, create division, and put past parties in their place is a weird mentality.

Oh boy, another mongering rant. Who's the one who's really fallen for the politicking and off base? As an understatement I'll point out there is currently far greater support for the subway from all parties locally and at the leadership's of all parties both City and Province wide. Also to your quip about Ford it actually wouldn't matter who was the Leader for the Consevatives.

Please find a Provincial party and relevant leader who is not going to support the subway in Scarborough at this important stage? It will be even more critical this decade with the RT disinegrating, so to imply otherwise seems more like sour grapes.

LRT could have been built without the transfers if keeping to the technology of a lower ridership capacity was the ultimate goal. The BDL subway could have also been extended a bit cheaper but the poltocally dysfunctional City screwed up again and again.

Many politicians around Downtown really loved Transit City and obvioulsy the same level of love wasn't shared in the majority of places it was being built. That now goes for almost all Polticians of any stripe, level and any leaders of this City or Province. That is what matters the most now. It should be clear there were more important issues besides capacity not being addressed with both the RT and Sheppard. Many councillors choose to ignore even the loudest concerns and wasted critcal time as well as big money not compromising at a minimum. This was extremely divisive and counterproductive In the bigger picture of transit capital and Poltics.

Therefore im very happy the Province has taken this file and Sheppard out the City's geographical political dysfuction. No matter what is built it will connect the Centre, also have adequate capacity and have stops. Also no matter what Party is in power next term it will be moving forward in a much better state then the Citys previous plans.

It's time to move on so doing nothing as you imply is also not a real option with both public and private interests in heavy support. Continue to buy the vocal minority, now powerless mongering and believe otherwise if you will.

 

[sixrings]

Always time to move on when you're particular ideology is leading. No more time to debate. Let's build without questions after we debated and questioned everything for thelast couple decades.

 

[syn]

Gee, I wonder why it failed to meet ridership targets and projections? Couldn't be because it's the shortest line with the fewest stops of any of the four rapid transit lines, I suppose. Couldn't be because the condo boom is not done yet, there's still all those Canadian Tire lands to redevelop. Cause and effect. Phase 1 of the YUS stretched over 8kms with 12 stops with immediate plans for further expansion. Phase 1 of the BD Line went from Keele all the way east to Woodbine (20 stations!), again with immediate construction to add-on additional segments.

Sheppard Line "failed" precisely because the TTC and the City has done everything it its power to tarnish it as a failure. By North American standards ~50,000 daily ridership is still damn good, btw. Let's you visit the MidWest or Mid-Atlantic States to see some real underachieving metro systems. A Phase 1 Sheppard Line that stretched from Downsview to say Agincourt would have likely been a massive success with all the transfer traffic feeding into from Dufferin, Bathurst, Vic Park, Warden and Kennedy buses. That it, along with the Scarborough BD extension, have been allowed to become political hot potatoes instead of actual priorities for any sitting government as of right now is a shame to say the very least. And nothing you need gloat over.

The Spadina Streetcar, which is similar in length, has comparable ridership despite running parallel to the University Line. The Sheppard Line's length is not the reason for it's poor ridership; it's the fact that it's in a low density suburban corridor with limited demand.

Everything has turned out exactly as experts predicted decades ago.

Nearly 20 years since it opened, development is still nowhere near what's necessary to justify a subway here.

The Eglinton Crosstown likely won't help Sheppard's ridership numbers either.

Cause and effect.

As experts pointed out decades ago, building a subway and hoping for riders is a poor strategy. You have to build where there is already demand. Other forms of rapid transit, like LRTs, can accomdate lower density suburbs very well. We've seen this implemented successfully all over the planet.

 

[Rainforest]

Before the subways, feeder (bus) routes fed the streetcar routes.

That was very reasonable, at the time. The city had much lower total population, and much smaller populated area.

Routes shown on the 1954 map, including the suburban bus lines, cover no more than 1/4 of the area TTC serves today.

 

[Leo_Chan]

That was very reasonable, at the time. The city had much lower total population, and much smaller populated area.

Routes shown on the 1954 map, including the suburban bus lines, cover no more than 1/4 of the area TTC serves today.

And how much did the Provincial and Federal subsidies (operational) increase by?