Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[pman]

Was there some sarcasm here that I'm not detecting? In one sentence you're decrying partisan politics in Toronto, and then in the very next sentence you're perpetuating it with a statement that can only widen the rift between the core and the suburbs.

I'd suggest that the rift between the core and suburbs owes much to a crowd of suburban councillors who have consistently demonized people living in the old City and have hijacked what little money we have for infrastructure to build SSE strictly on the grounds of suburban identity politics, while rejecting any data-driven analysis and professional planning. Which also ensures we won't be able to afford any transit investments that actually make sense.

 

[amnesiajune]

Was there some sarcasm here that I'm not detecting? In one sentence you're decrying partisan politics in Toronto, and then in the very next sentence you're perpetuating it with a statement that can only widen the rift between the core and the suburbs.

It's not really inaccurate. This discussion isn't about LRTs or Mark IIIs or subways. It's about the fact that Toronto's very sharply divided by race and income, and the part of the city filled with lower-income immigrants is going to support whatever plan that the wealthier, whiter part of the city opposes.

 

[crs1026]

I'd suggest that the rift between the core and suburbs owes much to a crowd of suburban councillors who have consistently demonized people living in the old City and have hijacked what little money we have for infrastructure to build SSE strictly on the grounds of suburban identity politics, while rejecting any data-driven analysis and professional planning. Which also ensures we won't be able to afford any transit investments that actually make sense.

Perhaps, but I take a more philosophical view. Densification is not well understood by many in the suburbs, and nobody saw it coming.

For people who live in the center, it's really not much of a change. There has always been enough density and urbanisation in the center that peoples' lifestyles were already acclimatised. But many have chosen the burbs because they prefer that lifestyle (empty streets, quiet undense neighbourhoods, single family detached dwellings, shopping malls) over the urban lifestyle. Which would be fine, except that with densification, the suburban lifestyle is being encroached. The suburbanite sees this as a takeaway, and it is. It's just not reversible.

You can't blame people for running for office by promising to fight for what's important to people. Suburban councillors don't have an obligation to sell densification and Places to Grow to their constituents (although they sure ought to stop being in denial over it) The tension that this creates is natural. Overcoming it is the challenge of the next ten years.

- Paul

 

[ttk77]

It's not really inaccurate. This discussion isn't about LRTs or Mark IIIs or subways. It's about the fact that Toronto's very sharply divided by race and income, and the part of the city filled with lower-income immigrants is going to support whatever plan that the wealthier, whiter part of the city opposes.

I'm not saying a divide doesn't exist, but if one believes that the divide is a bad thing and that we should be doing something to heal it, insulting one area of the city in the same breath as saying that the divide is bad doesn't make any sense.

 

[bobbob911]

What was the specific text of Ainsley's 3A motion that was passed? I read that Cllr Crawford amended it/weakened it somehow.

Does it still state that the subway and the Eg East LRT should be considered one project ie. either both move forward or neither do?

 

[amnesiajune]

I'm not saying a divide doesn't exist, but if one believes that the divide is a bad thing and that we should be doing something to heal it, insulting one area of the city in the same breath as saying that the divide is bad doesn't make any sense.

I think it's the point is to show how people see the division from the other side. Cause it really does seem to a lot of people like they're working their butts off for a relatively low salary, and whenever their transit needs come up for discussion they get short-changed by the people downtown. That's probably a big reason for the opposition to the alternative LRT proposal - not the that it's an LRT, and not just that it's what the people downtown want, but also that it's another proposal to build something cut-rate in Scarborough. Spending the same $3.35 billion on a much longer LRT would be a lot more palatable than cutting $1 billion from the project to build an LRT that's barely longer than the SRT

And yes, I know that the Eglinton East LRT is a part of the proposal but that's 6 kilometers away - how would this forum react if a downtown city councillor wanted to build a cycle track on Church Street, and a suburban city councillor said "no, we can build plain bike lanes on Church Street and Parkside Drive for the same price"?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Spending the same $3.35 billion on a much longer LRT would be a lot more palatable than cutting $1 billion from the project to build an LRT that's barely longer than the SRT

If that is so palatable, why didn't any councilors from Scarborough suggest it themselves as a "grand bargain"?

And yes, I know that the Eglinton East LRT is a part of the proposal but that's 6 kilometers away - how would this forum react if a downtown city councillor wanted to build a cycle track on Church Street, and a suburban city councillor said "no, we can build plain bike lanes on Church Street and Parkside Drive for the same price"?

Actually, Jarvis; or the Gardiner.

AoD

 

[JGHali]

I think it's the point is to show how people see the division from the other side. Cause it really does seem to a lot of people like they're working their butts off for a relatively low salary, and whenever their transit needs come up for discussion they get short-changed by the people downtown. That's probably a big reason for the opposition to the alternative LRT proposal - not the that it's an LRT, and not just that it's what the people downtown want, but also that it's another proposal to build something cut-rate in Scarborough. Spending the same $3.35 billion on a much longer LRT would be a lot more palatable than cutting $1 billion from the project to build an LRT that's barely longer than the SRT.

Which is just so much BS. The opposition is being entirely driven by politicians and ignorance perpetuated by those same politicians. The idea that two LRTs instead of a single subway station at STC amounts to a "cut-rate" approach is nothing more than spin.

And yes, I know that the Eglinton East LRT is a part of the proposal but that's 6 kilometers away - how would this forum react if a downtown city councillor wanted to build a cycle track on Church Street, and a suburban city councillor said "no, we can build plain bike lanes on Church Street and Parkside Drive for the same price"?

What does this even mean? The Eglinton East route is simply different.

BTW, I'd like to know which councillors and, by extension, Liberal MPPs and ministers, have been accepting donations from Oxford Properties and their proxies.

 

[dowlingm]

What was the specific text of Ainsley's 3A motion that was passed? I read that Cllr Crawford amended it/weakened it somehow.

Does it still state that the subway and the Eg East LRT should be considered one project ie. either both move forward or neither do?

The budget chief's amendment removed the word "project" and inserted "network", which sounds good but I suspect is undoubtedly an attempt to prevent SSE being halted without the City Manager actually coming up with funds to build EELRT as well.

 

[amnesiajune]

If that is so palatable, why didn't any councilors from Scarborough suggest it themselves as a "grand bargain"?

Because they have the majority on their side. They don't need to bargain. Barring a massive overhaul of city council in the next few years or some compromise, the subway extension is going to be built. The side that needs to bargain is the one that isn't going to get its way by being hard-liners.

What does this even mean? The Eglinton East route is simply different.

An LRT to West Hill and UTSC doesn't address Malvern's transit needs. What the downtown councillors are proposing is to spend less on Malvern's transit needs so that an LRT to a completely different part of Toronto can be built.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Because they have the majority on their side. They don't need to bargain. Barring a massive overhaul of city council in the next few years or some compromise, the subway extension is going to be built. The side that needs to bargain is the one that isn't going to get its way by being hard-liners.

In other words, they aren't all that worked up about the actual transit outcome. Well, one always get the transit outcome one deserves - we shall see how one will bring transit to Malvern now (if that's what it was ever about), shall we? Enjoy the ride!

AoD

 

[justindw]

That vote was a huge win for Ford. That should have passed. Council is too divided to even vote on the details. I could see them regretting this one come election time

I don't know if you know this, but Ford lost the last election. That sort of means we don't have to pretend he won.

 

[amnesiajune]

In other words, they aren't all that worked up about the actual transit outcome.

All I'm saying is that the proposed LRT to Sheppard & Progress is dead. It was already dead, now it's even more dead. Josh Matlow et al. can keep floating the dead proposal, or come up with a new one. If this is about Scarborough's transit, then they'll come up with a new one. If this is about getting support from their downtown constituents in 2018, they'll keep talking about their dead proposal.

If you want to make it about the other side, you can, but pointing fingers isn't going to change anyone's mind on this issue.

 

[bobbob911]

The budget chief's amendment removed the word "project" and inserted "network", which sounds good but I suspect is undoubtedly an attempt to prevent SSE being halted without the City Manager actually coming up with funds to build EELRT as well.

Thanks - looks like the Recommendation now reads:

"That City Council direct that the Eglinton East LRT and the Scarborough Subway Extension be considered as one network
in future reports to City Council."

Not sure how much meat is actually on that, the entire transit grid in totality is "one network". Project was much stronger in terms of scope.

 

[Hopkins123]

The only way the SSE proposal is tolerable at this point is if they add-in intermediate stations at Eglinton-Brimley and Lawrence-McCowan. Even if it costs us another $300 million, it'd be worth it. To bring up something BurlOak posted some pages back, nothing's stopping them from elevating the Lawrence East station onto a bridge as to avoid the water table issues at that intersection. It could be done.

It might not be with this administration and/or Mayor, but hopefully by the next session a more reasonable plan will emerge. One that makes provisions for a future extension to Progress Campus and Malvern, for instance.