Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[nfitz]

TTC really faked it by using 51% inflation for 2010-2023. FYI, Bank of Canada says inflation between the last 13 years (2003-2016) is 25.66%. The $2.9B figure is an overestimate. Using 26%, the figure should really be around $2.3B.

You've mistaken the consumer price index, to the construction price index. 4% has been a pretty typical rule of thumb for many years - and over 13 years that would be 66.5%. 51% increase in construction costs is only 3.2% a year. This is quite reasonable - and perhaps low, given the much higher increases in some of those early years (though lower and even negative more recently).

To suggest that TTC are faking it, when you are ignorant of which price index to use, doesn't really support your case!

 

[SJD_Toronto]

As a South Scarborough resident who has no reason to ever take the SSE extension, I do specifically reject any plan that will involve replacing the SRT with bus shuttle service for multiple years. This would be a political and logistical nightmare. If the only plan on the table that avoids this is a tunneled subway, then I am (reluctantly) still in favor of the subway.

Yet if you said that to a city councillor like Josh Matlow or Gord Perks, you would be just wrong and you wouldn't have your transit facts straight because according to them, the only plan for Scarborough is the LRT.

 

[bobbob911]

There may still be LRT configurations that can keep the SRT running in the meantime, I'm not sure. If so, if the price was dramatically less expensive I would be in favor of that.

 

[coffey1]

There may still be LRT configurations that can keep the SRT running in the meantime, I'm not sure. If so, if the price was dramatically less expensive I would be in favor of that.

I get what you are saying with the nightmare a shutdown will cause. But I just thought id point out there is no savings between the LRT and subway as a technology. The savings came from taking the easy, & cheapest way out of not having to do a bit more design to add adding new concrete structure, and possible small land acquisition necessary to extend the subway as the LRT can fit on the current RT tight curve but the subway cant. Either option would involve RT shutdown.

If we are re-designing another route (which im not sure there is) to keep the RT running than we should be 100% re-designing for a Subway extension not LRT because there is no savings and we can remove the transfer. The SLRT was the "cut corners" plan if we want to save as much money as possible. That is all that matters to some.

In any event my vote goes to a Surface subway with an RT shut down design to ensure a seamless connection to SCC without the insane cost of tunneling. It would be short term pain for a much better future.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Why does the subway extension have to all be underground anyway.

 

[Cobra]

Why does the subway extension have to all be underground anyway.

The TTC aren't fans of elevated subways in the middle of the street like Chicago or New York, especially with this city council lacking any backbone, they'd rather overpay then making locals on that street angry.

Of course expropriating the lots of them to rezone and revitalize McCowan Road is surely out of the question.

Anyway you put it, STC is profoundly flawed and needs a makeover. Some had proposed their town Centre to be at Kennedy Station, I had the vision of the current STC to be more of a transit Hub gate to the east and entertainment district while the corporate STC should be on Sheppard Avenue East around McCowan Road.

A surface Subway in the middle of McCowan Rd with commercial rezoning on the avenue is something that could work...but wouldn't go too well with those living on the artery.

Keesmaat said she has plans for STC with the subway and the area to make it a vibrant and proper downtown...

I don't know...we'll see...

STC needs to be fixed sooner than later...once and for all

 

[Palma]

The $2.9B is 2023$ and the $1.8B is 2010$. That's like comparing apples with oranges. Makes no sense except that the TTC wants to throw people off and not revive the LRT plan.

TTC really faked it by using 51% inflation for 2010-2023. FYI, Bank of Canada says inflation between the last 13 years (2003-2016) is 25.66%. The $2.9B figure is an overestimate. Using 26%, the figure should really be around $2.3B.

Well, from 2010 to 2023 at 3% inflation per year= approx. $2.6B range

 

[bobbob911]

In any event my vote goes to a Surface subway with an RT shut down design to ensure a seamless connection to SCC without the insane cost of tunneling. It would be short term pain for a much better future.

To anyone who thinks shutting down the RT for 3 years is acceptable short-term pain, let me ask this: Would it also be acceptable "short-term" pain to shut down the lower loop of YUS for some extended period of time to get all the signal and track improvements done? I bet it would save a ton of money too!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

As a South Scarborough resident who has no reason to ever take the SSE extension, I do specifically reject any plan that will involve replacing the SRT with bus shuttle service for multiple years. This would be a political and logistical nightmare. If the only plan on the table that avoids this is a tunneled subway, then I am (reluctantly) still in favor of the subway.

Yet if you said that to a city councillor like Josh Matlow or Gord Perks, you would be just wrong and you wouldn't have your transit facts straight because according to them, the only plan for Scarborough is the LRT.

There may still be LRT configurations that can keep the SRT running in the meantime, I'm not sure. If so, if the price was dramatically less expensive I would be in favor of that.

I get what you are saying with the nightmare a shutdown will cause. But I just thought id point out there is no savings between the LRT and subway as a technology. The savings came from taking the easy, & cheapest way out of not having to do a bit more design to add adding new concrete structure, and possible small land acquisition necessary to extend the subway as the LRT can fit on the current RT tight curve but the subway cant. Either option would involve RT shutdown.

If we are re-designing another route (which im not sure there is) to keep the RT running than we should be 100% re-designing for a Subway extension not LRT because there is no savings and we can remove the transfer. The SLRT was the "cut corners" plan if we want to save as much money as possible. That is all that matters to some.

In any event my vote goes to a Surface subway with an RT shut down design to ensure a seamless connection to SCC without the insane cost of tunneling. It would be short term pain for a much better future.

Why does the subway extension have to all be underground anyway.

The TTC aren't fans of elevated subways in the middle of the street like Chicago or New York, especially with this city council lacking any backbone, they'd rather overpay then making locals on that street angry.

Of course expropriating the lots of them to rezone and revitalize McCowan Road is surely out of the question.

Anyway you put it, STC is profoundly flawed and needs a makeover. Some had proposed their town Centre to be at Kennedy Station, I had the vision of the current STC to be more of a transit Hub gate to the east and entertainment district while the corporate STC should be on Sheppard Avenue East around McCowan Road.

A surface Subway in the middle of McCowan Rd with commercial rezoning on the avenue is something that could work...but wouldn't go too well with those living on the artery.

Keesmaat said she has plans for STC with the subway and the area to make it a vibrant and proper downtown...

I don't know...we'll see...

STC needs to be fixed sooner than later...once and for all

To anyone who thinks shutting down the RT for 3 years is acceptable short-term pain, let me ask this: Would it also be acceptable "short-term" pain to shut down the lower loop of YUS for some extended period of time to get all the signal and track improvements done? I bet it would save a ton of money too!

There probably is a way to do LRT with the SRT running. They could actually try to find that out rather then this spinning tires we are doing.


TTC is a bunch of babies for not pushing for above ground subways. The debate would have been over long ago if that had happened. Not like there are heaters at the underground ones during the winter.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

To anyone who thinks shutting down the RT for 3 years is acceptable short-term pain, let me ask this: Would it also be acceptable "short-term" pain to shut down the lower loop of YUS for some extended period of time to get all the signal and track improvements done? I bet it would save a ton of money too!

Transit constriction always will cause delays. The TTC's accommodations for Eglinton Line construction are actually greater in magnitude, in terms of minutes delayed, than what is anticipated for the Line 3 SRT shutdown. I've been dealing with these disruptions for years now and we're surviving fine.

The disruptions in Scarbrough were expected to be a 6 min delay for 3 years; Eglinton will face longer delays across nearly a decade. If Eglinton can deal with it, so can Scarbrough.

I wasn't around for Line 2 or Line 1 construction, but I bet they were far worse than the disruptions for even Line 3 or even Line 5

 

[malvern2]

Ummm I think Scarborough has been "dealing" with it for 50 years. Gimme a break, I love the people who never even bothered to visit Scarborough (mostly downtown folks) not understanding just how disconnected it is to the rest of this city.

 

[bobbob911]

I seriously doubt the impact is only 6 minutes, either considering change in headway or length of trip during rush hour.

You didn't answer the question though - why don't we shut down the downtown line to do much needed backlog of work (i.e. Not regular maintenance)? I expect shuttle busses there would be no more average impact on terms of time taken, if you throw enough busses at it....

 

[justindw]

To anyone who thinks shutting down the RT for 3 years is acceptable short-term pain, let me ask this: Would it also be acceptable "short-term" pain to shut down the lower loop of YUS for some extended period of time to get all the signal and track improvements done? I bet it would save a ton of money too!

I absolutely would.

 

[44 North]

Might sound like a dumb question, but I've asked it before and am wondering if there's a consensus as to the answer. That is: can we still use the SRT's at-grade portion of the Stouffville corridor (whether as current SRT, S(L)RT, or a SSE 'surface' alignment) - with enough space left over for RER and RER+/SmrtTrack?

I think this is a fundamental lynchpin in all plans, and is at least one of the leading reasons for the SSE to go through. Namely, that the Prov wants the entire stretch of Stouffville GO through Scarb and requires that no RT service runs along it by 2031 (in order to provide the promised frequencies and Yonge 'relief' potential).

 

[M II A II R II K]

And they could at least build a diagonal tunnel to Lawrence East since the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.