Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[crs1026]

I feel less chagrined about blurring the line. Even Steve Munro wasn't sure.

http://stevemunro.ca/2007/07/27/ten-years-of-spadina-streetcars/

Edit: See also http://www.blogto.com/city/2012/03/how_the_ttc_sullied_the_reputation_of_lrt_part_i/


- Paul

 

[ILuvTO]

Where has anybody in Scarborough ever expressed opposition to LRT on Eglinton? Don't mistake Ford's rhetoric for the general opinion of everyone in Scarborough. There's support for LRT on Eglinton. At worst, indifference. I've never really heard of any opposition.

The Bloor-Danforth extension on the other hand has a long history and has been promised by various politicians at different times. And it's why it became a touchy subject.

Sheppard, too, in my opinion has a more complex landscape of opinions. Ford and some local BIA voices (notably several car dealers) made noise about LRT. Public opinion was more nuanced. From skepticism over actual benefit, to creating another Kennedy type transfer at Don Mills. I'd argue that the Sheppard subway debate could be neutralized tomorrow if the City argued for conversion to LRT and pitched it as, "just like Eglinton".

I wouldn't say there has been opposition to the Eglinton LRT, but there hasn't been joy either. Anecdotally speaking, none of my Scarborough friends are happy with it. They'd rather have a subway on Eglinton. The two biggest issues they have is the loss of a lane for cars on Eglinton (which someone stated earlier in the thread is no longer true - I have yet to find a link to verify this), and the fact that the shelters will not be protected from the elements like an underground subway station. They also feel like they are being 'ripped off' compared to the rest of the city.

I agree that a Kennedy type transfer at Don Mills makes zero sense just as the Kennedy transfer itself doesn't. Either pick one or the other (LRT or Subway) for a line and call it a day.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Streetcars are technically LRT's.

There is nothing ambiguous about that. We are unique in Toronto for being hanged up on technology naming nomenclature. You are a fool if you think the Eglinton Crosstown will be anything like the Spadina streetcar. Period.

 

[kEiThZ]

I can see the public confusion.

Look at so much of what's pitched as features of LRT: centre-lane, segregated ROW, signal priority. That accurately describes both St. Clair and any surface LRT that would be built. The biggest difference is stop spacing.

Now, I'd also argue that St.Clair and Spadina, etc. would also have been far more attractive, if those streetcars had been replaced earlier with the new modern fleet.

 

[crs1026]

Tigermaster's speed statistics cleared my head on this one. The design things are similar, so it all looks the same. Transit time is the diferentiator.

Stop spacing is the key difference. An LRT is really a "surface subway" which in theory is invisible between stops, just as a subway is. The lay person's stereotype is that LRT will stop as often as streetcars do. (I don't see many people trying to flag down a streetcar on the Queensway the way they try to get the bus to stop for them mid-stop).

I'm not sure either penny has dropped yet. As noted, any past improvement to street cars has been branded LRT by the publicists, which muddies the waters. The technical purity of the terms is irrelevant, but to leave the impression that future LRT will just be a streetcar because it doesn't look that different is quite unfortunate.

My beef is certainly not with LRT. Our tolerating such poor kph stats from our streetcars certainly sticks in my craw, however.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

My beef is certainly not with LRT. Our tolerating such poor kph stats from our streetcars certainly sticks in my craw, however.

My beef is that anyone would ever use kph rather than the usual km/hr (or km/h).

 

[coffey1]

IF LRT is really loathed so much could we put ROW BRT down every street like Finch, Sheppard, Lawrence, Ellesmere? And then ROW BRT on streets like Kennedy, Victoria Park, Mccowan.... There is plenty of road space when you take out the grass between the street and the side walk to fit it all in. Then when people see transit not stuck in transit we can convert to LRT. Again I am OK with the bloor extension to STC it is everything else I think is a bit silly although I do think that Sheppard LRT would have been better received if the Subway had been converted to LRT eliminating the stop. It frustrates me that the place which needs transit the most, the suburbs, has the most road space to fit in BRT or LRT but no one thinks its good enough. When we were kids my father took the Agincourt GO downtown everyday. But you need a way to get to the GO stop which is what LRT or BRT would be perfect for.

But what would Bombardier think? Besides creating construction jobs Isnt that a big driver behind this LRT exercise? Keeping one of biggest Manufacturing companies happy before they leave like the rest of them in Ontario. Ooops speaking out loud. Politics always trumps common sense and real need unfortunately

 

[ehlow]

Spadina Streetcar: 14 km/h
Eglinton LRT (surface): 25 km/h
Yonge Line: 29 km/h

The LRT is 70% faster than the streetcar and a subway is only 16% faster than the LRT. People need to stop equating LRTs to streetcar. It's completely disingenuous, when the LRT is in fact closer in average speed to subways.

Occasionally you ride a streetcar in the right circumstance and it's amazing how fast they can go if they were in an environment that made it possible.

Ex. late night on Queens Quay, a driver was gunning it, not stopping at any lights, it zoomed along way faster than normal. Sometimes in the Bay St. tunnel the drivers go super fast. I'd assume Queensway is fast but haven't ridden it much.

Other times, it's waiting at traffic lights so much and creeping along it's insanely frustrating.

That's why to me middle-of-road ROW transit works best in suburban areas where they can go fast with stops & traffic lights further apart and giving green more of the time. It's when you get to dense urban environments you want to go underground.

 

[salsa]

We can give Scarborough even more rapid transit for less money by tweaking SmartTrack

By Stephen Wickens, Ed Levy and Steve Fry

Blog post: http://worldwidewickens.com/?p=1037

Report: http://www.pacificlinks.ca/reports/Scarborough_ExpressRail_Report.html




There was also an older report from 2013 created by think tank Transport Action Ontario, that is much more technically detailed:
http://rrr.transport-action.ca/PDF/GTHARRR-7.pdf

 

[Rainforest]

We can give Scarborough even more rapid transit for less money by tweaking SmartTrack

By Stephen Wickens, Ed Levy and Steve Fry

View attachment 64978

Blog post: http://worldwidewickens.com/?p=1037

Report: http://www.pacificlinks.ca/reports/Scarborough_ExpressRail_Report.html




There was also an older report from 2013 created by think tank Transport Action Ontario, that is much more technically detailed:
http://rrr.transport-action.ca/PDF/GTHARRR-7.pdf

Not a bad idea, in principle.

But it viability depends on the frequency that SmartTrack can achieve through the Union station and the central section of the rail corridor.

If SmartTrack is a standalone project, then having a 5-min or 6-min peak hour frequency is best, but having a 10-min or even 15-min (if it comes in addition to GO RER) is still useful.

Once SmartTrack becomes the main trunk route for Scarborough, it has to run at high frequency or it simply will not be able to handle the load. One of the reports talks about a 6-min frequency. That's about right; perhaps something like 7.5 min is still viable, but no less frequent than that.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From link.

In Atlanta's Marta, each line, during the rush hour, has usually 20 minute service, some 10 minute. In the central downtown, where two lines come together, they may get 5 to 10 minute service. Toronto is "spoiled" with frequent service.

Getting 15 minute is still better than some cities in the United States who get 20 minute service, or worse.

 

[ottbike]

If SmartTrack had its own rolling stock, and it were to terminate at STC/McCowan, not only could you most likely use the existing guideway, but you could probably take advantage of the existing MSF for the RT, rather than acquire a new property. Might require some expropriation though.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

We can give Scarborough even more rapid transit for less money by tweaking SmartTrack

By Stephen Wickens, Ed Levy and Steve Fry

View attachment 64978

Blog post: http://worldwidewickens.com/?p=1037

Report: http://www.pacificlinks.ca/reports/Scarborough_ExpressRail_Report.html




There was also an older report from 2013 created by think tank Transport Action Ontario, that is much more technically detailed:
http://rrr.transport-action.ca/PDF/GTHARRR-7.pdf

I really do like this idea. I wonder if City Planning has explored it.

 

[LNahid2000]

From link.

In Atlanta's Marta, each line, during the rush hour, has usually 20 minute service, some 10 minute. In the central downtown, where two lines come together, they may get 5 to 10 minute service. Toronto is "spoiled" with frequent service.

Getting 15 minute is still better than some cities in the United States who get 20 minute service, or worse.

I rode MARTA recently and was pretty impressed with the service! Yes, it wasn't as frequent as the TTC, but it was way faster than the TTC. I was amazed that I got from the airport to downtown (a 16km distance) in 17 minutes. The same distance on the Bloor line would take twice as long.

 

[ottbike]

I really do like this idea. I wonder if City Planning has explored it.

It might have been proposed if the Scarborough Subway Extension wasn't such a political "must have".