nfitz
Superstar
No, it didn't get reallocated - still for Sheppard East LRT.
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
The SRT stations at Lawrence and Ellesmere will be reconstructed as SmartTrack stations. And will go all the way downtown. Sounds like a win-win.
ILuvTO
Active Member
No disagreement here. With that said the optics don't look good when comparing the previous subway proposal with this one (loss of two stops). I know my Scarborough friends are none too pleased. They also think smart track is a disaster and a waste waste time. They go back to the LRT argument (above ground, weather issues when waiting for trains, etc). I love discussing transit with them. Lol.
rbt
Senior Member
Almost certainly comes with a 3+ year shutdown of the SRT route while it gets built.
I'm onboard but a temporary BRT (just dedicated lanes) would be needed during the transition. The $2.5B SCC subway extension prevents this (no, it's not a good value; conservatives and those demanding the gravy train be stopped should be furious at the proposal).
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Keesmaat: we believe heavy-rail spur off ST to STC. would not allow for sufficient service
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Filip
Senior Member
Must be nice being Scarborough.
crs1026
Superstar
That suggests either a) a more intensive service frequency for RER and/or b) a pretty sizable ridership number - the kind that argues for getting the Relief Line in place.
- Paul
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Cllr Davis: if ST going to become backbone of Scarb network and provide partial relief, we really need prov's position, before we commit
Her statement is true if:
a) SmartTrack's frequency is being halved because half the trains are still going up to Unionville, and/or;
b) RER to Unionville will eat up so many trips that SmartTrack will have trouble fitting in.
Technically speaking, if SmartTrack's overall frequency isn't sufficient to handle the demand, there's no reason STC can't be served by either ST + RER, or ST + a shuttle route running just the Scarborough section.
The service parameters are very maliable at this point, so discounting an option completely based off of a single service model, IMO, is unwise.
robmausser
Senior Member
Im only speculating but one would imagine that both STC and the Kennedy -> Unionville portion of Smarttrack would NOT need 5 minute frequencies to be successful.
I believe the 5 minute frequencies were required to bring relief to the Yonge subway.
I dont see either the STC spur nor the Kennedy -> Unionville section being part of the relief of Younge. Relief of Younge/Bloor would come from the Dundas West Station -> Main Street Station section of Smarttrack.
So one could surmise that offering 5 minute frequencies to Lawrence Smarttrack station, and then splitting off to STC and Unionville with 10 minute frequencies would be sufficient.
BurlOak
Senior Member
What train capacity are you using - maybe 1000 passengers.
10 minute frequency is 6000 ppdph.
The combined Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown had about 12000 ppdph demand and the was SRT just to McCowan. They need to provide 5 minute frequency to STC - possibly 4 minute.
10 minute frequency is 6000 ppdph.
The combined Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown had about 12000 ppdph demand and the was SRT just to McCowan. They need to provide 5 minute frequency to STC - possibly 4 minute.
rbt
Senior Member
As a spur that's true. As a straight extension for the currently map'd termination point at Kennedy (I don't put much weight on future possibilities coming to fruition unmodified) it would probably be fine. The unanswered question here is what is GO expecting for service levels in Markham.
Also, if you do assume frequent RER service north of Kennedy will occur (leaving no/few trains for the spur) how that does impact actual ridership from SCC where 95% arrive by bus from much more distant areas? Finch East or Milliken seem a much closer transfer location for a lot of todays SRT riders.
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crs1026
Superstar
The spur and doubletracking can be built with SRT still running, for much of the construction period anyways. Once SRT is decommissioned, there is room to add a third track and perhaps a fourth track north of Kennedy to Ellesmere. That gives you the ability to shuttle from the spur to Kennedy - not ideal, but not much different than at present.
I'm not optimistic about anything more than two tracks on the stretch from Scarboro Jct to Kennedy. So if RER is more frequent than we've assumed, there will definitely be a limit to the number of trains that can run the full route.
- Paul
I'm not optimistic about anything more than two tracks on the stretch from Scarboro Jct to Kennedy. So if RER is more frequent than we've assumed, there will definitely be a limit to the number of trains that can run the full route.
- Paul
A while ago I took a look at the ridership numbers of Bloor-Danforth. If memory serves me correctly, nearly half of the ridership east of Yonge got on at Kennedy, Warden, and Victoria Park (if it wasn't exactly 50% it was surely a pretty sizeable percentage). By basically taking all of the current SRT riders out of Kennedy, right away you've relieved Bloor-Yonge quite a bit.
Let's do the math here. The projection for the Scarborough Subway pphpd that I could find was 9,000 in 2031. Let's use 10,000 to be safe. We can assume that a SmartTrack spur to STC would draw about the same.
Let's assume RER would use the Stadler KISS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_KISS). If not, it will likely end up being something similar, with a similar capacity. The seated capacity of a 6-car train is 435, while the standing is 838 (http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/stadler-kiss-double-decker-trains/). Let's round down to 700, since we don't want it completely at crush load at the start of the line.
To accommodate 10,000 pphpd, you'd need a train every 4.2 mins. If we were to go with the actual projected ridership of 9,000 pphpd and the crush load of 838, it'd be a train every 5.6 mins. So yes, you'd need a train every 4.5 to 5 mins in order to satisfy the demand.
So basically, if you were to cut the Kennedy to Unionville section out of SmartTrack and have it divert to STC instead, you could accommodate the projected 2031 ridership. If you were to run the Kennedy to STC shuttle route every 10 minutes on top of that, you'd have no problem handling the demand.