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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Frankly I agree. The SSE had problems, and we've made it utterly impossible to discuss them meaningfuly. I liked, and still like, Miller, but he really didn't have a clue about Scarborough and played asisnine games with both the SRT and Sheppard.

Remember that his preference was for SELRT and extending the SRT as ICTS for some reason.

His preference was bringing rapid transit to priority neighbourhoods in a manner that made sense - or at least had some sort of expert rationale behind it that went beyond identity politics.

Miller's contention that subways are expensive and not needed in certain areas is being proven correct - between Sheppard and the SSE, we're talking about billions (probably over $10 billion) in transit infrastructure that's unnecessary and doesn't address the real problems in the system.

All of the transit we have under construction now (and recently completed), the new streetcars and the new Toronto Rocket...we can thank Miller for it.
 
Do you ever tire of the, dare I say, trolling?

That's a picture of a house. Here's a picture just west of High Park on Bloor in 1920- the subway opened just behind these buildings, nearly 50 years later.


1920-pictures-r-20861_thumb.jpg


The buildings on the right still exist.

Here is Dundas & Roncesvalles, looking north towards Bloor in 1912 (54 years before Dundas West opened)

roncesdundas2.jpg


The point, which you missed, is that areas like Roncesvalles, the Junction and the High Park area were already established neighbourhoods on a walkable, urban grid with a mix of commercial and residential activity. They were already serviced by busy streetcar routes (including the busiest streetcar line in the city before it was replaced by the Bloor Danforth line).

They weren't 'planned' communities that sprung up thanks to a subway being built.

The original point still stands, unless of course you'd like to post another picture of a house. ;)

The "house" (33 Gothic) is the view/perspective looking north from Bloor just west of High Park Ave. That same view today encapsules numerous residential high rises - which I sincerely doubt would be there in absence of the subway station.

For all we know those triplexes you sourced would be all the development to organically occur in the High Park area were just a streetcar line permited to exist there all these decades. "Build it and they will come" has demonstratively worked everywhere a subway station has gone in (Warden aside) and there's no reason to presume it'd fail in the context of SSE.
 
But it isn't well used, all things considered. Bayview, Leslie and Bessarion (lowest station ridership in the system by far at 2,880 from 2016 stats) are among the least use stations in the system. It's basically a subway shuttle from Fairview.

The 510 Spadina is not far off in terms of ridership, despite being just 800m away (a 10 minute walk) from the University Line. In driving terms that's about 2-3 minutes (in normal traffic of course). What would ridership on Sheppard be like if there was a subway running on Finch? Probably not so great.

Unlike the Yonge Line, where there was no going back to a streetcar, there are options for Scarborough that absolutely do not require a subway. Upgrading the current RT, as most seem to agree, would still be a great solution.

Again, considering the geography and age, it's not awful. The original subway still has stations that have pretty awful ridership (none bessarion like), but very similar or worse than Bayview and Leslie (those will probably get better in a decade when traffic gets worse, fuel prices go up, and condos go in). It was never meant to be that short, but again, it could be a lot worse. It currently has better ridership/km than the spadina line after st George, so only time will tell whether the investment will pay off. The spadina streetcar is probably
 
There's a very obvious pattern - almost every politician/official that gets to speak honestly about this project after leaving their post is against it, or at least suggests there is no real business case for it.

That is because they are car owners and too rich to care.
 
Nope. Although your statement applies for many areas surrounding the current subway lines outside of Scarborough


View attachment 157728

I imagine that homes in #3 had families with children at one time. The children grew up and left, leaving just the parents in a nearly empty house. Hence, the "decrease of 20% or more" in #3. Where do those children move to? Into #1 condos.
 
Again, considering the geography and age, it's not awful. The original subway still has stations that have pretty awful ridership (none bessarion like), but very similar or worse than Bayview and Leslie (those will probably get better in a decade when traffic gets worse, fuel prices go up, and condos go in). It was never meant to be that short, but again, it could be a lot worse. It currently has better ridership/km than the spadina line after st George, so only time will tell whether the investment will pay off. The spadina streetcar is probably

"It's not awful" is an objectively awful approach to transit expansion and justification.

Considering Spadina is a streetcar line of similar length and comparable ridership only 800m from a subway line, I'd say it's awful - at the very least, it demonstrates that corridor did not need a subway.

You're right that there are other stations on the network with low ridership - but there isn't a stretch anywhere on the system with ridership that bad. Bayview, Bessarion and Leslie average 5,830 riders a day. That is indeed awful. Rosedale and Summerhill may have bad ridership - but they're also bordered by Yonge to the south (over 204,000 riders) and St. Clair to the north (nearly 35,000 riders). Old Mill may not handle a lot of riders, but Royal York (over 23,000 riders) and Jane (nearly 20,000 riders) each handle more riders than Bayview, Bessarion and Leslie combined.

This is why is makes sense to build subways where they're actually needed.


The "house" (33 Gothic) is the view/perspective looking north from Bloor just west of High Park Ave. That same view today encapsules numerous residential high rises - which I sincerely doubt would be there in absence of the subway station.

For all we know those triplexes you sourced would be all the development to organically occur in the High Park area were just a streetcar line permited to exist there all these decades. "Build it and they will come" has demonstratively worked everywhere a subway station has gone in (Warden aside) and there's no reason to presume it'd fail in the context of SSE.

It hasn't worked at Kipling.

It hasn't worked at Kennedy.

It hasn't worked on the Sheppard Line.

It's a very poor subway construction rationale.

The point, again, is that High Park, The Junction and Roncesvalles were already established neighbourhoods. If all they decided to build in High Park were triplex's, that would be fine. Density isn't just achieved by throwing up condo farms. Some of the densest cities in the world (like Paris) have a relative dearth of skyrises.

A subway station made sense at Dundas West because all the ingredients were there - a walkable, established neighbourhood with a mix of residential and commercial, along with relatively close proximity to downtown. Roncesvalles is also a unique destination in it's own right. So is High Park.

These neighbourhoods were established well before the subway arrived. Here's Dundas & Keele over 50 years before the subway arrived:

201326-dundas-keele-east-1912.jpg
 
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"It's not awful" is an objectively awful approach to transit expansion and justification.

Considering Spadina is a streetcar line of similar length and comparable ridership only 800m from a subway line, I'd say it's awful - at the very least, it demonstrates that corridor did not need a subway.

You're right that there are other stations on the network with low ridership - but there isn't a stretch anywhere on the system with ridership that bad. Bayview, Bessarion and Leslie average 5,830 riders a day. That is indeed awful. Rosedale and Summerhill may have bad ridership - but they're also bordered by Yonge to the south (over 204,000 riders) and St. Clair to the north (nearly 35,000 riders). Old Mill may not handle a lot of riders, but Royal York (over 23,000 riders) and Jane (nearly 20,000 riders) each handle more riders than Bayview, Bessarion and Leslie combined.

This is why is makes sense to build subways where they're actually needed.

Do you honestly believe that any of the sections of subway you mentioned outside of Sheppard had the ridership levels you quoted 10, 20, even thirty years after they were built? Some of those sections are over 60 years old. They've had 3 generations of change, new building designs, they've seen the rise, fall, and rise again of the streetcar, the introduction of suburban development, etc. Sheppard is 15 years old. It may seem like a long time, but it's still within the first generation of the line's users. Remember, the Yonge line used to run 2-car G-series trains during the off-peak hours because ridership was fairly low during the first decades of the subway's existence. It may have been packed during rush hours, but I can make the same argument with the Sheppard subway currently, especially for a line half the length of the original Yonge subway.

There's also the important aspect of context. Here in Toronto, subway ridership is huge, our subway cars are huge, and our transit share is huge. We have subway lines that are the most crowded in North America (this means more crowded than NYC's Lexington Avenue line). Our trains are among the largest as well (only NYC has larger trains). Half of New York City's subways have average ridership levels worse than that on Sheppard, especially outside of Manhattan. While it's true that half of those lines are elevated, it doesn't excuse the potential of having grade-separated heavy rail transit in what we'd consider "sparsely populated suburbs". It's true that we don't need nearly the number of lines NYC has because population density in Brooklyn, the bronx, and Queens are on average higher than those in Toronto, but it doesn't excuse the lack of rapid transit lines on Sheppard and Eglinton (with the addition of a Don Mills Relief Line and the SSE, but those are N/S routes). This is only considering NYC. What about every other city in North America? Chicago? Vancouver? Philadelphia? Boston? LA? DC? The Sheppard subway, despite being relatively young compared to half these cities, the Sheppard Subway sees, on average, higher ridership/km and ridership/station rates than any of these cities (and so many more around the world). The point of this is that our perception of what is deemed to be "adequate ridership for a subway" is heavily skewed by our own system. It shows that, sure, maybe we don't have our priorities straight, but it doesn't dismiss the feasibility for a subway on Sheppard, Eglinton, or even further into Scarborough within the next 20 years.

The average daily ridership of the Sheppard subway per station is 9,400 passengers/station, 11,750 if you take out Sheppard Yonge (a forced transfer), and 15,667 if you take bessarion out as well. It shows that maybe Bessarion was a white elephant, fair enough, but it doesn't make a fair enough argument for not having the subway there at all. Bayview sees about 10K passengers/day, Leslie now probably sees even more than that (given all the new condos there that 2016 statistics can't account for). These aren't bad numbers for individual stations, especially stations only served by one bus route. Don Mills sees 32K, which is fairly high. These riderships are only projected to grow with all the new developments on Sheppard.

We also have to remember that Sheppard is a stub, only a 5 km stand-alone line that merely acts as an extension of the Yonge line. If you put a 5km line downtown, you won't see that much better ridership than on Sheppard -- the streetcars are proof of this. Spadina likes to be quoted, but for a 6.1 km line, it sees fewer riders than the Sheppard Subway. While Sheppard as a stand-alone line would theoretically do worse than the existing Sheppard subway, it can be argued that Line 4 currently operates as a stand-alone line given the fact that there are no reasons to use it unless you live along it. In other words, it only serves the people living around it, not everyone else traveling to the corridor (unlike downtown). People from downtown always argue that subways need to be built downtown to serve people living downtown because the existing system is crowded. While this is true for 3 corridors -- King, Yonge, and University -- it is not true for every other corridor downtown. Subways need to be built downtown to serve the people commuting to downtown. One may argue that such a statement is ludicrous, but one has to remember that downtown is dense, and is therefore walkable. It's easy to get around downtown just by walking for 10 minutes. Many don't even bother with transit downtown, walking (and now cycling) are becoming the dominant modes of getting around downtown. Why?
1. It's free.
2. It's usually faster than taking a streetcar (We've all had the dreadful waits where it's faster to walk to your destination than wait the 5 minutes for a streetcar, then use it while it's crawling slower than a snail)
3. It's sometimes faster than taking the subway (It takes about 4 minutes to get from street level to platform, plus waiting 2 minutes for a train, riding for 4-6 minutes, then another 2-3 minutes to get back to the surface, making a trip between 12 and 15 minutes just to from one place in downtown to another, whether it's half a kilometer or 2 km away. This doesn't even include getting to the station. In most cases, it's simply faster to walk or bike).
4. It's healthier (air quality in subways, stress of riding the TTC, exercise)
5. It's convenient

The point I'm trying to make here is that while you claim that subways "should be built where they're actually needed", you forget who the subway lines actually serve -- downtown commuters, and people trying to get to far areas of the city. These types of trips aren't possible downtown because downtown is so small. Downtown subway lines are crowded because they are being used by people traveling TO downtown, not necessarily around downtown. You also forget that subways aren't meant to be built to be full on day one, no transit is. Subways are built to serve the needs of commuters now, and the future needs of commuters, regardless of who they are and where they're going. That's why the Bloor Danforth line isn't over-capacity yet. It was built to serve the needs of the 40, 50, 60+ years into the future, not just the overcrowding issues of the present day (back then). This is why I get annoyed when politicians claim LRT will solve everything. No, it will not. It may solve the problem for 10-2o, maybe even 30 years, but within that timeframe, we'll be back where we started, and we'll have to go through the same political mess that involved fixing the problem that could have been solved if we had built for the future. Right now, we have a backlog of expansion, which is why the DRL needs to be built before any suburban expansion. The problem arises with claiming that all suburban rapid transit expansion isn't justified. It's backwards to claim that we should only build for the here and now when that leads to the problem in the first place.

Again, I am not an opponent of LRT. I really like the technology, however, it has its purpose. Toronto Transit is built up on the idea of shuttling people to subway trunk routes, and using the high-speed subway to get around the city. LRT is a technology in the middle of the shuttle and trunk route system -- it's there to shuttle local people from surrounding areas down a main corridor to a destination, or to a subway trunk line. This technology fits perfectly for corridors like York Mills, Lawrence, Dufferin, Jane, Finch, Steeles. These are corridors with high levels of traffic, with lots of local traffic (meaning they aren't influenced by much ridership from other bus routes (with the exception of Finch)), but also a lot of long distance traffic either trying to transfer to the subway, or go further down the corridor. This is different from corridors like Bloor, Danforth, Yonge, Eglinton, Sheppard, Don Mills, and McCowan. These corridors serve as main corridors that funnel passengers down one direction. You don't see much local traffic on Eglinton or Sheppard, - almost everyone is heading for their connections on Line 1 or Line 2.
 
Dissing Line 4 is fair and logical. Grossly oversized, six-car setup was never warranted, and because of this it's left swaths east and west of its minimal length high and dry. Seemingly permanently. Was boneheaded and political, and they knew full well it sold Scarboro up the river with a likely unbuildable phase two extension.

A northerly crosstown line with subway-like speed and reliability could most definitely have been achieved without building Line 4 the way it was. Crosstown-style LRT is one way, Intermediary Capacity like Line 3, or simply building for conventional TO subways but as 4-car max. Sure maybe early Yonge line used 2-car off peak, but Sheppard could use 2-car on peak. Naturally with higher frequencies than the 5min we see today. Comparison to 510 Spadina isn't a very good one imo, it's like a block away from U/S.
 
Dissing Line 4 is fair and logical. Grossly oversized, six-car setup was never warranted, and because of this it's left swaths east and west of its minimal length high and dry. Seemingly permanently. Was boneheaded and political, and they knew full well it sold Scarboro up the river with a likely unbuildable phase two extension.

A northerly crosstown line with subway-like speed and reliability could most definitely have been achieved without building Line 4 the way it was. Crosstown-style LRT is one way, Intermediary Capacity like Line 3, or simply building for conventional TO subways but as 4-car max. Sure maybe early Yonge line used 2-car off peak, but Sheppard could use 2-car on peak. Naturally with higher frequencies than the 5min we see today. Comparison to 510 Spadina isn't a very good one imo, it's like a block away from U/S.

I've taken full train 4-car TR trains during rush hour (not crush load, but there was little room) (
). Saying the line could run with only 2-car trains on peak is quite the understatement. Granted, frequencies are half that of other lines during the peak hours, this is fairly reasonable given its length and the fact that ridership is half as high as the Yonge line. It's also shorter and has fewer stations. Building it with 6 car platforms may have been excessive (like building bessarion), but it was built like that to be future proof, which isn't necessarily a bad thing given the fact that we don't know how RLN will be built, and the line was intended on being built between Sheppard West and the STC. With this set up, I believe estimates put the ridership of the line at around 180K PPHPD, which isn't an insane amount but for a 15 km line, it would have ridership levels of around 12,000 P/km (compared to 16,000 P/km on the BD line at the time). Since the leaders of the time did not anticipate: open gangway trains being used on the line, automation, the fact that the line would remain incomplete, and the fact that ridership wouldn't boom as much as they anticipated all led to the large platform lengths seeming ridiculous. However, when you consider these factors, their mindset wasn't that illogical, especially since the Yonge line wasn't overcrowded back in 1997. The Sheppard Subway inadvertently added about 25K new users to the Yonge line (since ridership on the corridor doubled with the subway) -- the equivalent of 17 full TR subway trains by TTC standards. It is arguably one of the reasons we are discussing the relief line now, because it did increase the ridership on the Yonge line by a fair bit (7%) in a really short time.

The ridership is also highly variable, since it is heavily based on when the Yonge subway arrives during the afternoon peak, and the day. You may have some trains that are super crowded (Standing room only across the entire train and some cars arguably overcrowded) and some that are average (still a few seats). During the morning, this is less of an issue since riders entering don mills occur at a fairly constant rate, so almost all trains are standing room only but not "crowded". Running 4 car trains at a lower rate isn't necessarily a bad thing, since it accounts for demand while requiring less money for operators/operations.

I never understood the comparison to the 510 because Spadina south would not benefit at all from a subway on that street (not yet anyways). The point of the 510 is that it serves local travelers heading between Union and South Spadina/the waterfront, Spadina Station and College or Dundas, or along spadina. Few people are taking it more than the equivalent of 1 subway stop down the line -- it would be faster to take the University subway and walk. Spadina is good as is. It might need longer LRVs or a conversion to full-fledged LRT, but because it serves local travelers, a subway/Rapid Transit is not the best solution.
 
I've taken full train 4-car TR trains during rush hour (not crush load, but there was little room). Saying the line could run with only 2-car trains on peak is quite the understatement. Granted, frequencies are half that of other lines during the peak hours, this is fairly reasonable given its length and the fact that ridership is half as high as the Yonge line. It's also shorter and has fewer stations. Building it with 6 car platforms may have been excessive (like building bessarion), but it was built like that to be future proof, which isn't necessarily a bad thing given the fact that we don't know how RLN will be built, and the line was intended on being built between Sheppard West and the STC. With this set up, I believe estimates put the ridership of the line at around 180K PPHPD, which isn't an insane amount but for a 15 km line, it would have ridership levels of around 12,000 P/km (compared to 16,000 P/km on the BD line at the time). Since the leaders of the time did not anticipate: open gangway trains being used on the line, automation, the fact that the line would remain incomplete, and the fact that ridership wouldn't boom as much as they anticipated all led to the large platform lengths seeming ridiculous.

You're acknowledging the low 5min frequencies. Bump that to 2min and we could very much make do with 2-car trains on Line 4 at peak. Extend it east and west and even the most inflated of projections would still say 4-car is more than sufficient for centuries if not millenniums. Which is why I argue TTC and Metro were wrong for having it be 6-car conventional subway. When you wrote 180k pphpd did you mean 18? That would be a great number and could more than be carried with 4-car subway, or say an 8-car ICTS mk1. Tho no projection is showing that. Wasn't it like 6k pphpd in the Chong report.

However, when you consider these factors, their mindset wasn't that illogical, especially since the Yonge line wasn't overcrowded back in 1997. The Sheppard Subway inadvertently added about 25K new users to the Yonge line (since ridership on the corridor doubled with the subway) -- the equivalent of 17 full TR subway trains by TTC standards. It is arguably one of the reasons we are discussing the relief line now, because it did increase the ridership on the Yonge line by a fair bit (7%) in a really short time.

Not sure I fully buy this. Yonge had capacity issues going back to the late 70s, ditto for B/D. It's been known and acknowledged, and ridership variability is a huge part of that since it doesn't follow the normal avg am/pm peak. But other than being a flavour of the month issue it gets ignored and pushed aside. Maybe Sheppard is but one of the reasons the network is over-capacity in the present, though not sure the relevance to my opinion that 6-car Sheppard was built overkill.

And I don't care about Bessarion's existence. It should be there. Just that the line shouldn't have been built with 6-car since the high costs for things like a massive 150m long 15m deep Bessarion left those east of Don Mills high and dry.
 
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Do you honestly believe that any of the sections of subway you mentioned outside of Sheppard had the ridership levels you quoted 10, 20, even thirty years after they were built? Some of those sections are over 60 years old. They've had 3 generations of change, new building designs, they've seen the rise, fall, and rise again of the streetcar, the introduction of suburban development, etc. Sheppard is 15 years old. It may seem like a long time, but it's still within the first generation of the line's users. Remember, the Yonge line used to run 2-car G-series trains during the off-peak hours because ridership was fairly low during the first decades of the subway's existence. It may have b een packed during rush hours, but I can make the same argument with the Sheppard subway currently, especially for a line half the length of the original Yonge subway.

You keep mentioning context yet it seems to evade you when making these comparisons.

Do you know what ran on Yonge before the subway? A streetcar. A streetcar that started operation in 1861 - that's nearly a century before the Yonge Line opened. Building a subway actually made sense.

If you want to consider context, then you have to actually look at the area the Yonge Line covered. Here is Yonge and Queen in the 1920s (30 years before the subway opened).

20100822-TramsatQueenandYonge1920s.jpg



Yonge & King:

dscn1877_thumb.jpg






Here is Yonge and Bloor in 1926:

20100822-Yonge_Street_looking_north_from_Charles_Street_%28Postal_Station_northeast_corner%29.jpg


Yonge and St Clair (I think it's the 20s, may be later though):

sc-303a-74.jpg


The point is that decades before the subway was built, the Yonge corridor (and surrounding area) was already had major commercial density in a walkable, pedestrian friendly environment. It did go up to 'suburban' areas (Yonge and Eglinton) but they aren't suburubs in the same way Sheppard is now. They were pedestrian and transit friendly with accessible commercial establishments, located not too far from a dense downtown core. It's the exact opposite of the Sheppard corridor today.

Yonge was better suited for a subway decades before it was approved. Sheppard isn't remotely suitable for a subway nearly two decades after it was built.


These aren't bad numbers for individual stations, especially stations only served by one bus route. Don Mills sees 32K, which is fairly high. These riderships are only projected to grow with all the new developments on Sheppard.

No, they're definitely bad. As in, worst in the system bad.

I would also argue that 32,000 for Don Mills isn't very high at all. Dufferin has almost the same ridership.


If you put a 5km line downtown, you won't see that much better ridership than on Sheppard -- the streetcars are proof of this. Spadina likes to be quoted, but for a 6.1 km line, it sees fewer riders than the Sheppard Subway.

Of course it does. As it's been pointed out more than once, it has comparable ridership despite running parallel to a subway line that's a 10 minute walk away. I would argue this is exactly why we need better subway coverage downtown, especially with almost the exponential growth of commercial and residential projects relative to everywhere else in the city.

Sheppard has no such competition. What would Sheppard's ridership be if there was a subway running parallel to it less than 1km away?

An LRT on Sheppard with another LRT on Eglinton would provide excellent rapid transit for generations.

Again, you are completely ignoring context.

It's easy to get around downtown just by walking for 10 minutes. Many don't even bother with transit downtown, walking (and now cycling) are becoming the dominant modes of getting around downtown.

Not really.

As you can see in the map I've linked, transit usage in the downtown core is definitely lower - but once you get out of the downtown core (but still in Old Toronto), transit usage is as high as it is anywhere - it's certainly higher than it is in Scarborough.

You seem to be completely unaware that getting around downtown can be an absolute chore. A subway system like New York, with dense coverage in the densest areas and commuter rail everywhere else would serve the system very well and make life easier for everyone.


I never understood the comparison to the 510 because Spadina south would not benefit at all from a subway on that street (not yet anyways). The point of the 510 is that it serves local travelers heading between Union and South Spadina/the waterfront, Spadina Station and College or Dundas, or along spadina. Few people are taking it more than the equivalent of 1 subway stop down the line -- it would be faster to take the University subway and walk. Spadina is good as is. It might need longer LRVs or a conversion to full-fledged LRT, but because it serves local travelers, a subway/Rapid Transit is not the best solution.

In my experience most people who get on at Spadina get off at Queen. Dundas and King are also busy, but those are way more than just one stop. These are all major intersections.

Getting off at Queen and University, for example, generally doesn't make any sense if you're going to Queen and Spadina (or somewhere nearby). You still have a 10 minute walk (or more depending on one's walking speed).

During rush hour, the vast majority of people who get on at King, Queen, Dundas and College are heading to Spadina Station.

Your description of the line's usage is inaccurate.

Believe it or not, a subway is suppose to serve local travelers too. They're essentially the next step beyond an LRT. They weren't designed to be express lines to the outer suburbs.

Personally, I wouldn't at all mind an upgraded line, but it doesn't have to be a subway. The point was to outline just how poor ridership is on Sheppard by comparing it to a streetcar line with similar ridership, that has a subway running nearby in parallel and that's also intersected by other streetcar lines at major intersections.
 
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You're acknowledging the low 5min frequencies. [...]
I wrote 180k PPD, not PPHPD, the former means Passengers Per Day, the latter being Passengers Per Hour Per Direction. In other words, daily ridership. A full Sheppard subway with a daily ridership of 180k PPD is not unreasonable.
I don't disagree that the existing line being 6 car compatible is overkill, I'm suggesting that at the time, it made sense for the leaders to build it as a 6 car subway train because of a bunch of factors: the subway was initially supposed to be 15 km long with ridership levels of around 180K, which is a somewhat similar rate to the BD subway. As a stub, it makes no sense for trains to be more than 4 cars, but as a high-ridership trunk corridor like the BD line with a future of growth, it is understandable.

I've always wonder why they stopped cut and cover or just don't use elevated lines, probably logistical issues.

You keep mentioning context yet it seems to evade you when making these comparisons.

Do you know what ran on Yonge before the subway? A streetcar. A streetcar that started operation in 1861 - that's nearly a century before the Yonge Line opened. Building a subway actually made sense.
[...]

While its true that the Yonge and bloor lines were streetcar replaced lines, it should be noted that the streetcars of the time had a lot less room than what they do now. Peter Witts are slow by CLRV and Flexity standards, and they carried half-1/3 as many as an ALRV or LFLRV. With the Peter Witt trailing cars running at 1 minute frequencies, it can be inferred that the average capacity of the line was around 8,000 PPHPD. While it's a bit higher than current Sheppard ridership (~4-6K PPHPD), there's one important difference, the Yonge streetcar was 11 km long, the Sheppard subway is 5.5 km long. The Yonge streetcar line was twice as long, so it requiring twice the capacity is completely within fair range. This is fair to assume because line length is proportional to used capacity when you have a line coming from the suburbs to downtown. The maximum thresholds of usage are never reached until the streetcar reaches College or even Dundas, everything north of that will leave the streetcar pretty much empty. If the Sheppard line was twice as long, and say, brought in another 60K passengers, the used capacity of the subway at Sheppard-Yonge would be 8,000PPH, the same as the Yonge streetcar.

It's also not a fair comparison showing one random intersection on Sheppard and the busiest intersection in Toronto. These are all areas on or near Sheppard served by the subway:

And here are a bunch of locations on or near Yonge that serve that subway:

Yonge at its worst is admittedly overall better than Sheppard at its worst, but it shows that a lot of context is missing with just one view of one intersection. It also misses the fact that Sheppard has had a decade and a half to develop. Yonge? Half a century.

No, they're definitely bad. As in, worst in the system bad.

I would also argue that 32,000 for Don Mills isn't very high at all. Dufferin has almost the same ridership.
Worst the system has? For a stand alone subway line, maybe, but both the Spadina Subway, and the spadina extension perform worse on the Ridership/km metric than Sheppard does.

Bessarion? Fine, that was a bad station that was too early for its time. Bayview? Pretty average. Leslie? A bit lower than average, but it has been increasing. Don mills? Pretty good. Sheppard Yonge? Very good.

Dufferin is also pretty much downtown, where it has employment density to consider. You don't have that at Don Mills, its ridership is based entirely on those living nearby and the catchment it gets from local bus routes. These bus route numbers become redundant when you consider the fact that the 29 serves dufferin station.

Of course it does. As it's been pointed out more than once, it has comparable ridership despite running parallel to a subway line that's a 10 minute walk away. I would argue this is exactly why we need better subway coverage downtown, especially with almost the exponential growth of commercial and residential projects relative to everywhere else in the city.
[...]
I'm not arguing for not expanding subway coverage downtown, I'm arguing that a subway on spadina would make little to no difference to the streetcar ridership. The ridership is high on that route because people are traveling locally or to one specific station to get to the subway. In this case, waiting less time for a streetcar at a more local stop makes complete sense. It's most certainly faster than walking to the nearest stop (which if a subway was built on Spadina, would probably be at College, Queen/King, and maybe Queens Quay), going down 10 flights of stairs, waiting for a subway, getting to spadina, walking up 7 flights of stairs, and transferring. A subway is not suited for Spadina for this reason. A subway is, however, suited for Queen or King and Dundas. Just because one route has a lot of ridership doesn't mean a different technology would be better for the corridor.

Should a subway have been the choice for Sheppard, that's questionable. I'd give the corridor another 15 years before I make that call because subways are built for ridership anticipated after 30 years.

An LRT on Eglinton is stupid. I hate to say it, but Eglinton is the most congested crosstown corridor in Toronto outside of Bloor. The current crosstown is anticipating ridership levels of 300K PPD within 10 years of opening. To give that some context, the line is 20 km long, so that's around 15K P/km: Bloor is 27km long and has ridership levels of 19 K P/km. In other words, within 10 years of opening, the ridership on the crosstown is going to be close to that of the BD subway (which will have existed for around 60 years). I see a huge problem with that in the future, especially since we don't know what the future of the corridor is. The line didn't have to be underground but it sure as hell should have been heavy rail, and it should have been built before Sheppard.

Again, I'm not arguing for not expanding downtown rapid transit, I'm justifying suburban rapid transit -- something you consider to be unnecessary and illogical
 
Not really.

As you can see in the map I've linked, transit usage in the downtown core is definitely lower [...]
Except for the fact that old Toronto is not downtown, it is considered the suburbs. It's where people live, not where people work.

I've lived in both areas. I know getting around downtown is a chore, which is why I always take GO or the subway when I have to go there. That doesn't mean that subways are the best solution for downtown. Subway coverage in NYC is pretty much everywhere, not just Manhattan. It should also be noted that the size of Manhattan is 59 square km while downtown Toronto is 14. Again, no one ever takes the commuter rail into Manhattan if they live in NYC. They take the subway. If they live in Long Island (the equivalent of Pickering, in that both are 30 km from city centre) or Westchester or north of that (the equivalent of Richmond Hill, in that both are 26km from the city centre), then they take the commuter rail. The best thing that can be done for downtown (downtown, not old Toronto) transit after building the DRL and maybe a Dundas subway, is increasing the number of streetcar ROW lines there and removing cars from a few streets. The area should be walkable, with fair transit access. It shouldn't be car friendly with deep transit access unless you're going to other areas of the city.

In my experience most people who get on at Spadina get off at Queen. Dundas and King are also busy, but those are way more than just one stop. These are all major intersections.
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I personally would never do something that stupid (during rush hour anyways). The subway is faster and has a bit more room. There's also the fact that you can be waiting 5-10 minutes for a streetcar (especially with long lines) instead of 1-2 for a subway, and that you don't have to deal with traffic lights and the extra stops. To each their own I guess. I can make the walk in 5, and there's almost always a queen streetcar there I can take to spadina.

King doesn't make any sense, especially with the KSP in effect, unless they want the fewest transfers.

While its true that the Yonge and uni lines might act in this way, they rarely do (unless there are some transfers with streetcars). Regardless, it works with Yonge and Uni because they are shallow subways. The DRL and future downtown lines are supposed to be the deepest in the system (deeper than Sheppard and the TYSSE). To me, getting to the platform would be a huge chore, especially if I was only going, say from Osgoode to King station.

Maybe not because the 401 is 1 km south of Sheppard, but 1-2km north, you have Finch East, which sees around 35K PPD...

If everyone on the 401 took a full Sheppard subway, the line would exceed that of the bloor Danforth line. I think it's safe to say rapid transit up there is justified.
 

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