Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Neutrino]

I am sure some embittered basement dweller will be pounding furiously on his keyboard. The rest of us will move on.

Isn't that all of us on UT?

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm still waiting to hear what North York did to densify beyond relying on two subway corridors (3 if we count TYSSE, 4 if we add the Eglinton tunnel). I'm genuinely curious.

North York has a whopping 16% higher density than Scarborough as per the 2016 census. So clearly they are the enlightened ones that all the rest of the burbs must learn from. By the way, the Community Council fact sheets has Scarborough at higher density than North York. But we'll keep it simple for now.

All the bright minds that keep arguing that Scarborough is a low density shithole (despite being 36% more dense than Mississauga), let's hear from you. What did North York do other than build subways to achieve such great urbanity? Please share specific policies (beyond building subways) that apparently made North York an urban paradise.

 

[syn]

Isn't that all of us on UT?

Not all of us are pounding furiously.

 

[syn]

I'm still waiting to hear what North York did to densify beyond relying on two subway corridors (3 if we count TYSSE, 4 if we add the Eglinton tunnel). I'm genuinely curious.

North York has a whopping 16% higher density than Scarborough as per the 2016 census. So clearly they are the enlightened ones that all the rest of the burbs must learn from. By the way, the Community Council fact sheets has Scarborough at higher density than North York. But we'll keep it simple for now.

All the bright minds that keep arguing that Scarborough is low density shithole (despite being 36% more dense than Mississauga), let's hear from you. What did North York do other than build subways to achieve such great urbanity? Please share specific policies (beyond building subways) that apparently made North York an urban paradise.

I don't think anyone is citing North York as a model for transit expansion - just the opposite. The Sheppard Line is an example of what we shouldn't be doing. So is the TYSSE.

The other factor is employment - North York is simply a far greater employment centre than Scarborough is. I'm thinking Mississauga falls under the same category, despite a lower population density.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think many people here like to talk in absolute certainties... I have no idea if it will be built, and neither do you... you can assume... but many assumed the LRT would get built.... previously people thought eglinton west subway was going to get built... others thought Sheppard would reach at least victoria park... all im saying is I wouldnt bet my house on it.

They could find some challenging engineering condition that would balloon costs. But other than that, I expect Ford will get shovels in the ground on this. And in a few years time we can stop the ridiculous circular debates on UT about the SSE.

We'll see. No shovels in the ground right now.

I'm still waiting to hear what North York did to densify beyond relying on two subway corridors (3 if we count TYSSE, 4 if we add the Eglinton tunnel). I'm genuinely curious.

North York has a whopping 16% higher density than Scarborough as per the 2016 census. So clearly they are the enlightened ones that all the rest of the burbs must learn from. By the way, the Community Council fact sheets has Scarborough at higher density than North York. But we'll keep it simple for now.

All the bright minds that keep arguing that Scarborough is a low density shithole (despite being 36% more dense than Mississauga), let's hear from you. What did North York do other than build subways to achieve such great urbanity? Please share specific policies (beyond building subways) that apparently made North York an urban paradise.

Have mel as mayor haha

There's no more debate. Outter Scarborough council no longer has a say nor can they interfere and cause delaus or problems.

The subway "loop" is getting built. The connections feeding into it, whether LRT, BRT or Bus will be up to the City moving forward. The debate is done and for the most part has been completely done in Scarborough Poltics for almost a decade A few here still don't believe and likely never will

Haven't heard anything about sheppard since Duguid quit.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't think anyone is citing North York as a model for transit expansion - just the opposite.

This is some serious gaslighting.

That is the exact path Scarborough took. Scarborough is also a sprawling suburban mess and the only thing that stopped it from completely falling off a cliff was amalgamation. Without amalgamation Scarborough would also find itself in a situation of increasing property tax rates, and falling development fees because there is not many places left to develop here. Scarborough, North York, and Etobicoke were all ticking time bombs because of their car-centric urban planning. However North York was the only City that got the memo about this type of planning being unsustainable and made efforts to change that. Neither Scarborough or Etobicoke did on the other hand.

@JSF-1 covered this well, but I'd add that there was a clear difference between Mississauga and Scarborough in the mid-late 90s even before amalgamation. Scarborough had three subway stations and the RT in the mid 80s yet did very little to take advantage of this infrastructure in terms of intensification. They continued on the same path Mississauga was on, the difference is that now the rest of the city is also responsible for it. Mississauga has to deal with their own issues.

It's amazing. So Mississauga and Scarborough were on the same path? Really? So why is it that Scarborough has 36% higher density?

I am starting to wonder if y'all care for stats or just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks.

The other factor is employment - North York is simply a far greater employment centre than Scarborough is. I'm thinking Mississauga falls under the same category, despite a lower population density.

It's amazing what being a 20 minute subway ride from the downtown core did for midtown and northern Yonge. And likewise, it's amazing what being a low density suburb with the ability to build office parks with massive fucking parking lots did for employment in Mississauga. So, can you suggest a way we can relocate Scarborough 20 mins from the downtown core, or will you start praising Scarborough when they start build gigantic office parks like Mississauga?

 

[sixrings]

This is some serious gaslighting.





It's amazing. So Mississauga and Scarborough were on the same path? Really? So why is it that Scarborough has 36% higher density?

I am starting to wonder if y'all care for stats or just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks.



It's amazing what being a 20 minute subway ride from the downtown core did for midtown and northern Yonge. And likewise, it's amazing what being a low density suburb with the ability to build office parks with massive fucking parking lots did for employment in Mississauga. So, can you suggest a way we can relocate Scarborough 20 mins from the downtown core, or will you start praising Scarborough when they start build gigantic office parks like Mississauga?

A Subway wont get you downtown in 20 minutes either from STC even with no stops. The only way to get downtown in that speed is by GO or RER. So if thats your standard you should be arguing for RER/GO. Theres plenty of parking lots in Scarborough that could have been turned into offices yet no offices wanted to go there.

 

[syn]

It's amazing. So Mississauga and Scarborough were on the same path? Really? So why is it that Scarborough has 36% higher density?

Not to speak for @JSF-1 , but I don't think he's saying 'North York deserves a subway because...". He's simply pointing out the reality that both these areas have taken steps to move away from that previous model. Mississauga has been taking these steps for decades - the city centre is unquestionable densifying.

He's correct - Scarborough without being amalgamated was on the same path as Mississauga. Does Scarborough have higher density? Sure - but it's still nowhere close to being enough to qualify for a subway.

It's amazing what being a 20 minute subway ride from the downtown core did for midtown and northern Yonge.

Yes, being a 20 minute ride from the downtown core sure helps. Being already attached to the urban grid/Yonge Street certainly does make for an easier expansion decision. I'm not sure what you define as 'midtown', but Yonge Eglinton is part of Old Toronto, not North York - and it has the highest employment density in the city. There were legitimate reasons for expanding there.

The northern parts of Yonge also made a lot more sense for expansion, even if downtown should've been made a priority first.

And likewise, it's amazing what being a low density suburb with the ability to build office parks with massive fucking parking lots did for employment in Mississauga. So, can you suggest a way we can relocate Scarborough 20 mins from the downtown core, or will you start praising Scarborough when they start build gigantic office parks like Mississauga?

Is Scarborough responsible for. ..anything?

We're acting as though Scarborough doesn't have three subway stops and a rapid transit line. Why didn't pre-amalgamation Scarborough take advantage of this? Why did they choose to build a mall near the highway and call it their city centre? Why didn't they take advantage of available land to attract business, at the very least?

How does a single, 6km extension magically make Scarborough an attractive business destination?

 

[kEiThZ]

A Subway wont get you downtown in 20 minutes either from STC even with no stops. The only way to get downtown in that speed is by GO or RER. So if thats your standard you should be arguing for RER/GO. Theres plenty of parking lots in Scarborough that could have been turned into offices yet no offices wanted to go there.

I didn't say anything about a subway. I am suggesting that we need to pick up and move Scarborough. After all, according to you guys North York is such an amazing sea of urbanity. Let's do exactly what they did. Starting with full on relocation.

 

[kEiThZ]

He's correct - Scarborough without being amalgamated was on the same path as Mississauga. Does Scarborough have higher density? Sure - but it's still nowhere close to being enough to qualify for a subway.

Ah yes. 16% more density than North York and you suddenly qualify for 3-4 subways! So what's the level that you need for 2 subways in your opinion? 8% more? 10% more? Be specific.

The northern parts of Yonge also made a lot more sense for expansion, even if downtown should've been made a priority first.

I agree. Which is why it's entirely moronic to hold Scarborough to the same standard as North York. Indeed, the fact that North York has so many subways and is only 16% denser says a lot....about North York. But since you guys insist on using that standard....

Is Scarborough responsible for. ..anything?

We're acting as though Scarborough doesn't have three subway stops and a rapid transit line. Why didn't pre-amalgamation Scarborough take advantage of this? Why did they choose to build a mall near the highway and call it their city centre? Why didn't they take advantage of available land to attract business, at the very least?

How does a single, 6km extension magically make Scarborough an attractive business destination?

Other than some original sin of locating a fucking mall near the highway what exactly did Scarborough do that was so bad? You guys talk in a lot of generalities. Be specific.

I see businesses and high density housing locating along the avenues in Scarborough. Exactly as they should. And just like every other part of town. And the only other nodes are the subways. But people like you keep saying North York was so wise and demonstrated amazing foresight. So I want to know what exactly North York did other than pure dumb luck of geography and building 3 subways. What exactly is the difference in development patterns between most of Scarborough and two blocks away from any subway in North York?

 

[sixrings]

Sometimes thats exactly it... pure luck... but yonge has always been a hot spot. Scarborough did not help its self though by building its city centre so far away from everything. If you had to build the city centre in no mans land could you have at least done it on a major street. If STC was located north of the 401 on Sheppard things would have been vastly different. Even better they could have built STC at Kennedy and Eglinton.

 

[kEiThZ]

He's simply pointing out the reality that both these areas have taken steps to move away from that previous model.

What exactly are these steps? I want you to cite specific policies with sources. I am sick of these fucking circular discussions with generics. Let's have actual policy examples. Sourced from city documents. You are saying North York has done better. Put up or shut up.

Mississauga has been taking these steps for decades - the city centre is unquestionable densifying.

This is how I know you guys are losing it. You're defending Mississauga densifying one corridor while leaving the rest of the suburb a auto paradise while chastising Scarbrough for development spread along several avenues and not all concentrated at SC or Kennedy.

This is exactly why people in Scarborough think a lot of these discussions are unfair. This nonsense. Right here.

Comparison to Mississauga. "You guys should have built a mall and put lots of condos around it." Immediately followed by comparisons to North York, "Why didn't you guys build dense avenues?"

 

[kEiThZ]

Sometimes thats exactly it... pure luck... but yonge has always been a hot spot. Scarborough did not help its self though by building its city centre so far away from everything. If you had to build the city centre in no mans land could you have at least done it on a major street. If STC was located north of the 401 on Sheppard things would have been vastly different. Even better they could have built STC at Kennedy and Eglinton.

I agree. Let's have the City of Toronto invest 2-3 billion dollars to relocate STC and all associated buildings there to Kennedy station to make zealots like you happy.

Out of curiosity, how many decades does it take before Scarborough gets to stop paying for allowing a mall to pop up beside a highway?

 

[sixrings]

I agree. Let's have the City of Toronto invest 2-3 billion dollars to relocate STC and all associated buildings there to Kennedy station to make zealots like you happy.

so what you are conceding is that moving STC would be cheaper. Anyone on here still debating is obviously passionate on either side. What would you like me to refer to you as if I am going to be known as a zealot?

 

[kEiThZ]

so what you are conceding is that moving STC would be cheaper.

I am not sure. But if it is, let's go for it. Seems to me that your ilk will never be happy until this is done. So let's pay out every business, move all the government offices, and all the residents near STC. All of it to Kennedy.

Gotta rectify this original sin so that the urbanity zealots can forgive us for this terrible mistake.

Anyone on here still debating is obviously passionate on either side.

I am fine with passion. What I am absolutely sick of and disgusted by is the lack of facts. The ridiculous comparisons with Mississauga and the constant praising of North York. Be honest. Before I brought it up, did you know that according to the census Scarborough was 36% more dense that Mississauga and only 16% less dense than North York?

What would you like to refer to you as if I am going to be known as a zealot?

Call me whatever you fucking feel like. I'm a big boy. I assure you I can take it.