Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Streety McCarface]

Torontonians weigh in on their transit priorities

"A plurality of poll respondents, or 37 per cent, said the relief line should be the TTC’s highest priority project. That was double the support for the second most popular project, the Scarborough subway extension, for which just 18 per cent of respondents said should be the priority."

This poll proves nothing that wasn't already known -- anyone can support a number of projects yet still prioritize them in a way that makes it seem as though only one has support. I think most of us can agree that the DRL and RLN are the most important transit projects in all of Toronto in recent history, but that doesn't mean many of us don't support other projects like the SSE, FWLRT, ECLRT, Jane LRT, or Sheppard West.

The DRL is worth every penny we spend on it though. It will solve a problem this city has been struggling with for 30+ years. No amount of extensions into the burbs is going to fix the fact that transit into the core is way beyond its capacity. That fact that we have been talking about a Subway on Queen street for over 100 years now and there are still people content with pushing it off even further speaks to the sad state of affairs this City is in.

As much as I hate to admit it, while the DRL is a super important piece of infrastructure, it only aims to solve the transfer crowding at Bloor Yonge and increase density in Downtown Toronto. With the current plan, it looks like it might not even do that because the stations are so deep and a transfer would be so cumbersome that it wouldn't be worth it to transfer. The DRL does not solve bus crowding issues on Finch, Eglinton, Sheppard, York Mills, Steeles, Jane, Kipling, Dufferin, etc. It does not replace the aging and unreliable SRT. It may not adhere to its intended purpose, and it may not improve downtown transit times. One single project cannot solve everything.

The RL South report just came out and it does shed some light on this. In the report for "Alternative Transit Technology" they outline that Full Automatic ICTS trains can move upwards of 22,032 pphpd at 1.75 minute intervals. If I am not mistaken that actually outclasses the LRT in passenger and wait time numbers, and even outclasses the current Subway in regards to wait time. With the money we are going to spend on the SSE its amazing to think we could not only convert the SRT to newer tech but also extend it to Malvern in half the time, for half the cost and with a great product. The transfer at Kennedy really becomes a non issue considering the new platform would need to be built anyways since Mk.III trains wouldn't be able to use the current Kennedy. However at this point this is probably out of the question because of things like RER and the City being to far into the current plan to back out.

You can find it here on page 8: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/relief-line-epr/appendix/Appendix 2-2_Alternative Transit Technology.pdf

Unfortunately, the report doesn't address where the hell they'll store and maintain the trains.

I don't think you can use ATC as an example considering it hasn't even made it down there yet. As far as I know the ATC is only functional as far south as Dupont. As well using the new Streetcars is kind of unfair considering that it was just the natural replacement for vehicles beyond the end of their useful lives. We can compare it to the 60' Nova Buses all of which operate suburban routes.

But there's funding for it and it's being installed now, and will be complete by the end of 2019, why can't one include that?

A thoughtful discussion requires a legitimate consideration of all factors and a broader context. Unfortunately the SSE hasn't been driven by thoughtful consideration, but by politics.

Here's a question - why didn't they just stick with the 3 stop plan?

Politics. Tory realized that the subway would interfere too much with smarttrack (they run along the same corridor), so he canceled the line, which was a shame because I think that the money from removing those smarttrack stations could have been used to guarantee the building of Eglinton West, or other stations in different areas of the city.

 

[steveintoronto]

Technology was never the issue, it was connectivity and alignment that was the problem for the SSE. ICTS, LRT, subway all adequate in terms of ridership and frequency.

You do realize what you've gone on record as stating there?

I'm just waiting for Keesmaat's official stance on the Scarborough Subway. She is in a tough spot, since she is 'technically' behind this awful compromise, and eventually she is at the mercy of Hon. Doug Fraud.

She was never for it, has stated it many times, and anyone claiming that she was is being wilfully blind as to what her situation was. Council (or Tory, depends how you want to interpret it) gave her the choices, and she had to back one. Since she was backed into a corner for something she's never supported, she whittled down the subway option to one stop to allow enough funding for the LRT option too.

She has *studiously* avoided mentioning the SSE in her so far disclosed platform statements. Did she compromise herself with the SSE? Absolutely, that's something she has to live down, her job entailed making decisions she didn't support. In an ideal world, she should have quit sooner. But she did eventually quit, and still has more to divulge, as do others now ready to sing.

Cue the chorus!

 

[zmonkey]

Etobicoke hasn't had a new subway station since 1980. At least Scarbourough saw something in 1985.....



.... see what happens when you pin one part of the city against the other, your arguments loose any real value.

Who did I pin against each other, I was replaying to a comment stating downtown hasn't had a new stop in decades. Most of the city hasn't, which is our cities biggest issue. The entire city needs better transit. Most citizens don't care, they just want there commute to be easier. Which is why we will never get anywhere. I am originally from Montreal, moved here in 2009, the fact that we are still debating what will be built in Scarbourugh despite a tax, provincinal funding should be the obscene part of the story. This makes our Montreal government seem Singapore efficient.

And just regarding pitting on region vs another, since I have been here no politician has pushed for the DRL expect 1. David Miller did not push it, nor did Ford, Tory, Mcguinty, Horwath or Wynne. The only one who made it a priority in a campaign was Hudak. And he was hated more than just about any poltiican I have seen downtown Toronto. He was probably going to be empty words, but he did push the idea harder than any other politician I have seen until this year in my decade in Toronto.

 

[syn]

Money. It was getting expensive so they cut it to one stop and added in the EELRT as an attempt to build more and save money.

Then it got more expensive.

Then it got expensive again.. no more EELRT.

Then it got more expensive again... Got to hide it from the masses, don't want to look bad on my campaign. - John Tory

Hmmm this didn't go as planned it seems.

Bingo.

If $4.6 billion was an acceptable cost then they would've went ahead with the three stop solution as they planned. Instead they drastically reduced the proposal to simply get it done.

Now the cost is close to the same (or more) as it was for the original 3 stop plan. That plan is now likely in the $6 billion - $7 billion dollar range.

The project is proceeding because now Tory has no choice, no matter how high the cost. They have to deliver a 'subway', even if it's an obvious mistake that will have future generations scratching their head.

Now that we've established that, is there a better way to spend $5 billion - $7 billion dollars that impacts more citizens in Scarborough?

 

[syn]

Who did I pin against each other, I was replaying to a comment stating downtown hasn't had a new stop in decades. Most of the city hasn't, which is our cities biggest issue. The entire city needs better transit. Most citizens don't care, they just want there commute to be easier. Which is why we will never get anywhere. I am originally from Montreal, moved here in 2009, the fact that we are still debating what will be built in Scarbourugh despite a tax, provincinal funding should be the obscene part of the story. This makes our Montreal government seem Singapore efficient.

And just regarding pitting on region vs another, since I have been here no politician has pushed for the DRL expect 1. David Miller did not push it, nor did Ford, Tory, Mcguinty, Horwath or Wynne. The only one who made it a priority in a campaign was Hudak. And he was hated more than just about any poltiican I have seen downtown Toronto. He was probably going to be empty words, but he did push the idea harder than any other politician I have seen until this year in my decade in Toronto.

Miller was for the DRL, but was a good foot soldier and went along with the politically motivated Spadina extension. That didn't lead to an openness to finally address downtown transit; it simply led to other people wanting their own subway too.

That's why the argument that finishing the SSE will make the DRL feasible doesn't make any sense. There's always going to be another part of the city that wants SUBWAYS SUBWAYS SUBWAYS.

Politicians consistently push the idea that 'downtown has enough subways' and that Scarborough is being deprived if they don't get anything but a subway, which is why I pointed out the reality of the situation.

The problem with downtown not getting any subway expansion in the past half a century is that it's desperately needed. The SSE is not needed, just as the Spadina extension was not needed. On top of that, the major transit expansion Scarborough saw in the the 80s didn't lead to any kind of sensible growth.

It's like obsessing over plastic surgery when your arteries are clogged and you're about to be hit by a Widow Maker.

 

[JSF-1]

Who did I pin against each other, I was replaying to a comment stating downtown hasn't had a new stop in decades. Most of the city hasn't, which is our cities biggest issue. The entire city needs better transit. Most citizens don't care, they just want there commute to be easier. Which is why we will never get anywhere. I am originally from Montreal, moved here in 2009, the fact that we are still debating what will be built in Scarbourugh despite a tax, provincinal funding should be the obscene part of the story. This makes our Montreal government seem Singapore efficient.

And just regarding pitting on region vs another, since I have been here no politician has pushed for the DRL expect 1. David Miller did not push it, nor did Ford, Tory, Mcguinty, Horwath or Wynne. The only one who made it a priority in a campaign was Hudak. And he was hated more than just about any poltiican I have seen downtown Toronto. He was probably going to be empty words, but he did push the idea harder than any other politician I have seen until this year in my decade in Toronto.

Tim "Whodat?" was hated for a justified reason. You don't just say you're going to cut 100,000 public sector jobs and somehow pull 1 Million private sector ones out of your ass and expect to be showered in praise and roses.

 

[steveintoronto]

This makes our Montreal government seem Singapore efficient.

And there you have your answer:
Metros. (not subways). And surprise, surprise! Toronto had one of the first: The SRT. (Designed to be automatically operated, the driver was there just to reassure suburbanites.)

The trains are also able to be operated exclusively by computers, becoming one of the earliest installations of Standard Elektrik Lorenz's "SelTrac IS" system (now owned and delivered by Thales Rail Signalling Solutions), doing away with the need for a human operator. However, due to opposition from the transit workers' union and public perception, operators were retained; the union has firmly opposed driverless trains.[19] (Other systems took full advantage of the automated operation and Vancouver's SkyTrain has been automated since 1985 with no mishaps.) The Scarborough line trains have only one operator, unlike most of the other TTC subway lines, which carry both a guard at the rear, who operates the train's doors, and an operator, who drives the train from the front. (Line 4 Sheppard, however, has used a single operator only since October 2016.) In practice, the Scarborough line trains drive themselves; the operator monitors their operations and controls the doors. One feature, which was not implemented at the time of Scarborough line's opening, is the automated next stop announcement system, which was introduced in January 2008 (which means operators are no longer required to call out stops manually) and uses the voice-over of Susan Bigioni, a TTC employee, identical to those used on the T1-series and older trains.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_3_Scarborough

 

[BurlOak]

Miller was for the DRL, but was a good foot soldier and went along with the politically motivated Spadina extension. That didn't lead to an openness to finally address downtown transit; it simply led to other people wanting their own subway too.

Looking at Transit City - the Don Mills LRT was completely incompatible with the DRL.
ECLRT not grade-separated to Don Mills shows no concept of integration with DRL.

 

[syn]

Looking at Transit City - the Don Mills LRT was completely incompatible with the DRL.
ECLRT not grade-separated to Don Mills shows no concept of integration with DRL.

That's like saying the Dufferin bus is completely incompatible with Dufferin subway station.

Transit City certainly wasn't perfect, but it brought Rapid Transit to areas of the city that needed it. If everything had went to plan, the Don Mills line would already be running.

It also did not interfere with the DRL south, which is the critical component.

 

[OneCity]

That's like saying the Dufferin bus is completely incompatible with the subway.

Transit City certainly wasn't perfect, but it brought Rapid Transit to areas of the city that needed it. If everything had went to plan, the Don Mills line would already be running.

It also did not interfere with the DRL south, which is the critical component.

Transit City wasn't perfect is a massive understatement. It was heavily flawed in terms of connectivity, impact with other transit modes, poor grade separation in the new lines and failed on this very important criteria. Yes, it would have brought rapid transit to areas of need, but to cut so many corners in doing so left it vulnerable and unstable with support of the people. It was getting called out at the end of Millers second term for these reasons and not just by Ford. Basically every leader or representative of any political stripe in Scarborough, at every level quickly ran from this plan when it was called out. They clearly knew most residents here didn't want a band-aid solution. Our transit politics, delays and extra costs today are a direct result of this ideological plan and the fight to preserve it by others

 

[Towered]

I wonder if the Scarborough subway pushers here would advocate for Etobicoke subway expansion with the same vigour. They're awfully quiet on that front.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I wonder if the Scarborough subway pushers here would advocate for Etobicoke subway expansion with the same vigour. They're awfully quiet on that front.

Don’t want to temp them, but I’m sure Pickering will want their subway after Ford mentioned it as an idea.

 

[OneCity]

I wonder if the Scarborough subway pushers here would advocate for Etobicoke subway expansion with the same vigour. They're awfully quiet on that front.

I'm very certain "subways pushers" are not the ones quiet on this line which is not even in design and only lightly discussed by anyone. When it's time comes and if Province see fit to extend to Mississauga Center I'm sure it will be discussed in the appropriate thread so de-railing off topic won't be necessary to get your answer.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I wonder if the Scarborough subway pushers here would advocate for Etobicoke subway expansion with the same vigour. They're awfully quiet on that front.

The crosstown doesn't count? I think everyone here supports a grade-separated Crosstown West extension...

 

[syn]

The crosstown doesn't count? I think everyone here supports a grade-separated Crosstown West extension...

Stop treating the people of Etobicoke like second class citizens!