Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[JSF-1]

If we were keeping the old out of place corridor and keeping the transfer: Then an SRT upgrade was the cost effective solution over LRT

The RL South report just came out and it does shed some light on this. In the report for "Alternative Transit Technology" they outline that Full Automatic ICTS trains can move upwards of 22,032 pphpd at 1.75 minute intervals. If I am not mistaken that actually outclasses the LRT in passenger and wait time numbers, and even outclasses the current Subway in regards to wait time. With the money we are going to spend on the SSE its amazing to think we could not only convert the SRT to newer tech but also extend it to Malvern in half the time, for half the cost and with a great product. The transfer at Kennedy really becomes a non issue considering the new platform would need to be built anyways since Mk.III trains wouldn't be able to use the current Kennedy. However at this point this is probably out of the question because of things like RER and the City being to far into the current plan to back out.

You can find it here on page 8: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/relief-line-epr/appendix/Appendix 2-2_Alternative Transit Technology.pdf

 

[OneCity]

The RL South report just came out and it does shed some light on this. In the report for "Alternative Transit Technology" they outline that Full Automatic ICTS trains can move upwards of 22,032 pphpd at 1.75 minute intervals. If I am not mistaken that actually outclasses the LRT in passenger and wait time numbers, and even outclasses the current Subway in regards to wait time.

You can find it here on page 8: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/relief-line-epr/appendix/Appendix 2-2_Alternative Transit Technology.pdf

Technology was never the issue, it was connectivity and alignment that was the problem for the SSE. ICTS, LRT, subway all adequate in terms of ridership and frequency. Now if they were looking at running a direct relief line thru East York, SCC and to Malvern with ICTS grade separating where required we could have possibly prevented the last decade or so in transit politics. At this stage I don't really think its would be worth exploring as we'd trigger further battles, studies and serious delays for both lines

 

[JSF-1]

You're right technology isn't the problem anymore however it is the reason we are here today. Today however the problem is cost and its a big one. We've gone down the road of Pay More - Get Less and money doesn't grow on trees in this City. The current administration isn't eager to raise taxes.

 

[raptor]

You're right technology isn't the problem anymore however it is the reason we are here today. Today however the problem is cost and its a big one. We've gone down the road of Pay More - Get Less and money doesn't grow on trees in this City. The current administration isn't eager to raise taxes.

Wrong. The problem is feasibility. It's not feasible to spend $4B on a one stop subway extension. It would have been, perhaps, feasible to spend the same amount on a 3-stop extension, or a 7 stop LRT.

 

[JSF-1]

I think what I said falls in line with your feasibility argument.

 

[Leo_Chan]

People are agreeing with each other!

 

[raptor]

I'm just waiting for Keesmaat's official stance on the Scarborough Subway. She is in a tough spot, since she is 'technically' behind this awful compromise, and eventually she is at the mercy of Hon. Doug Fraud.

 

[OneCity]

Wrong. The problem is feasibility. It's not feasible to spend $4B on a one stop subway extension. It would have been, perhaps, feasible to spend the same amount on a 3-stop extension, or a 7 stop LRT.

At this stage It's extremely doubtful a 1 stop would be considered by Ford. He's in full control and has never supported it. Even with the additional costs of this corridor I don't think here cares to appease the few Downtown councillors calling for further study and delay. He can just blame the Provincial Liberals, and Downtown Left for the one stop. Will be Interesting to hear the plan forward, as he still needs to avoid major delays to look like the hero.

I'm just waiting for Keesmaat's official stance on the Scarborough Subway. She is in a tough spot, since she is 'technically' behind this awful compromise, and eventually she is at the mercy of Hon. Doug Fraud.

Wouldn't be shocked if Ford is waiting for her to speak up before opportunistically addressing his plan of action. She'll be better off saying nothing to save her own future, she's in a no win situation with the line and her Mayoral bid against Tory. Could get interesting in terms of political theatre if she wants to blame Tory.

People are agreeing with each other!

Agree.

 

[zmonkey]

I'd love to hear him explain that remark. Downtown hasn't seen a new subway station in about half a century, despite the highest demand.

His comments have me wondering if he sees himself running for political office again sometime down the road.

Not to say Downtown shouldn't have the DRL (and more), that is not really a fair comparison. Downtown has had several service improvements, and trials. Weathers its the ATC, new street cars for capacity, Spadina going lane dedicated, king street pilot etc.

Scarbourgh hasn't seen a new subway station in a long time either.

The biggest issue is, most of the city really hasn't seen large chunks of improvement in transit. Look at the parklawn - Lakeshore area, an area that sits 10-12 KM from downtown and takes an hour to get downtown in rush hour. We have bad transit everywhere in this city. At least downtown there are options.

 

[JSF-1]

I don't think you can use ATC as an example considering it hasn't even made it down there yet. As far as I know the ATC is only functional as far south as Dupont. As well using the new Streetcars is kind of unfair considering that it was just the natural replacement for vehicles beyond the end of their useful lives. We can compare it to the 60' Nova Buses all of which operate suburban routes.

 

[micheal_can]

Not to say Downtown shouldn't have the DRL (and more), that is not really a fair comparison. Downtown has had several service improvements, and trials. Weathers its the ATC, new street cars for capacity, Spadina going lane dedicated, king street pilot etc.

Scarbourgh hasn't seen a new subway station in a long time either.

The biggest issue is, most of the city really hasn't seen large chunks of improvement in transit. Look at the parklawn - Lakeshore area, an area that sits 10-12 KM from downtown and takes an hour to get downtown in rush hour. We have bad transit everywhere in this city. At least downtown there are options.

Etobicoke hasn't had a new subway station since 1980. At least Scarbourough saw something in 1985.....



.... see what happens when you pin one part of the city against the other, your arguments loose any real value.

 

[syn]

Not to say Downtown shouldn't have the DRL (and more), that is not really a fair comparison. Downtown has had several service improvements, and trials. Weathers its the ATC, new street cars for capacity, Spadina going lane dedicated, king street pilot etc.

Scarbourgh hasn't seen a new subway station in a long time either.

The biggest issue is, most of the city really hasn't seen large chunks of improvement in transit. Look at the parklawn - Lakeshore area, an area that sits 10-12 KM from downtown and takes an hour to get downtown in rush hour. We have bad transit everywhere in this city. At least downtown there are options.

These 'improvements' are essentially the bare minimum required to keep things running. Even with the ATC, the Yonge Line will be over capacity. As @JSF-1 pointed out, new streetcars are a natural replacement for an aging fleet. The King Street Pilot, again, is the bare minimum for a corridor that has a much better business/ridership case for a subway than Scarborough, Sheppard or anywhere else in the suburbs (the same is true for the Spadina Streetcar).

In the half century since the last downtown subway opened, the focus has been on suburban expansion - that includes Scarborough, which received a new subway station in the 80s along with the RT.

The result of all of this is a system that's bursting at the seams, the result of ignoring expansion where it's desperately needed.

I'd love to see transit expanded in Scarborough, but I don't care to see the most money wasted on the least effective solution.

 

[syn]

What we can all agree on in that the one-stop version of the subway plan is preposterous.

There really is room for a thoughtful discussion on Subway vs LRT and alignment; the discussion varies if you tinker with or extend alignments, its not a simple up/down comparison.

But a 3-stop version (Eglinton/Brimley, Lawrence McCowan, STC) can be thoughtfully discussed in the same breath as a revitalized LRT of similar route with/without some route extension.

What can not be managed is to take the one-stop idea seriously.

It never made any sense.

A thoughtful discussion requires a legitimate consideration of all factors and a broader context. Unfortunately the SSE hasn't been driven by thoughtful consideration, but by politics.

Here's a question - why didn't they just stick with the 3 stop plan?

 

[JSF-1]

Money. It was getting expensive so they cut it to one stop and added in the EELRT as an attempt to build more and save money.

Then it got more expensive.

Then it got expensive again.. no more EELRT.

Then it got more expensive again... Got to hide it from the masses, don't want to look bad on my campaign. - John Tory

Hmmm this didn't go as planned it seems.

 

[BurlOak]

People are agreeing with each other!

I think it shows that there was a lot of room to compromise between the SSE and the transfer LRT back in 2012 and 2013 when the debates were occurring.
Sadly, politics was more important than transit, and a compromise was not sought.