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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Yep, its really unfortunate how short sighted our past city planners were.

I don't know the exact date when that portion of the Canadian Northern ROW was abandoned but much of the Toronto-Ottawa route was abandoned around 1923. I'm not sure we can fault planners and public officials for failing to envision a future several decades in the future and a city they couldn't hope to imagine. I recall when houses were built on, I think, Brimley on the ROW. It was only 2 lots wide on either side. If large swaths of land was left undeveloped for no specific reason other than 'some day it maybe useful', they would have been laughed out of office.
 
We need to arrest the rising costs and lengthening timelines of transit infrastructure in the GTHA, if we're going to have any hope of building the transit system we need. Rather than accept the status quo, Queen's Park should lead an investigation into:

1) Why do Ontario transit projects take as long as they do to begin construction? Other jurisdictions are able to begin subway construction within two or three years of proposal. Why does it take Ontario a decade to do the same. How can we change our regulations to speed up construction?

2) What is driving up the costs of construction? Is it the cost of materials, the cost of labour, or another factor? Could bringing in foreign workers help to reduce costs? (Yes, not a politically friendly option, but the economic costs of delaying infrastructure used by millions is far in excess of denying a few thousand locals some jobs)

3) Is the lack of competition on the construction industry a factor in high costs? Have we done enough to open up construction opportunities to international firms?

4) Is chronic underfunding of local and regional city planning and engineering staff increasing the amount of time necessary to plan these projects? Perhaps a funding boost to local planning and engineering would significantly speed up timelines? I know for a fact that this is a pretty big issue at Toronto City Planning.

5) Given the year-over-year increases in the price of construction, how much money are taxpayers losing due to the slow progress on these projects?

6) What tools are available to the to the government to ensure enough capital exists to get projects under construction in a more timely manner? Can the infrastructure bank help?

7) And overall, a comparison of transit building procedures and regulations in Ontario compared to other jurisdictions around the world.

We needn't look to distant counties like China for solutions. Right here in Canada, BC and Quebec are able to get transit built and operational far quicker than we do in Ontario. These ridiculous timelines might very well be localized to Ontario.

1) Name me one subway built in the last 10 years in Canada? Skytrain, Ctrain, ETS, and Confederation lines do not count. They are not subways.

2)Canadian workers make a decent living. We could get it done for cheap if we used TFW, but then your taxes would also go to those who cannot get a job.

3) Again, the realities are that Canadians make a good living. Why not get rid of all Canadians working and just use foreign workers?

4) A funding boost is needed, but how? Raising taxes is unpalatable.

5) Probably in the billions.

6) The infrastructure bank is a good idea, but all levels of governments need one. And it is not just transit that is suffering. All public works are suffering.

7) China can do it much cheaper, but they have no regulations and no quality.
 
We need to arrest the rising costs and lengthening timelines of transit infrastructure in the GTHA, if we're going to have any hope of building the transit system we need. Rather than accept the status quo, Queen's Park should lead an investigation into:

1) Why do Ontario transit projects take as long as they do to begin construction? Other jurisdictions are able to begin subway construction within two or three years of proposal. Why does it take Ontario a decade to do the same. How can we change our regulations to speed up construction?

2) What is driving up the costs of construction? Is it the cost of materials, the cost of labour, or another factor? Could bringing in foreign workers help to reduce costs? (Yes, not a politically friendly option, but the economic costs of delaying infrastructure used by millions is far in excess of denying a few thousand locals some jobs)

3) Is the lack of competition on the construction industry a factor in high costs? Have we done enough to open up construction opportunities to international firms?

4) Is chronic underfunding of local and regional city planning and engineering staff increasing the amount of time necessary to plan these projects? Perhaps a funding boost to local planning and engineering would significantly speed up timelines? I know for a fact that this is a pretty big issue at Toronto City Planning.

5) Given the year-over-year increases in the price of construction, how much money are taxpayers losing due to the slow progress on these projects?

6) What tools are available to the to the government to ensure enough capital exists to get projects under construction in a more timely manner? Can the infrastructure bank help?

7) And overall, a comparison of transit building procedures and regulations in Ontario compared to other jurisdictions around the world.

We needn't look to distant counties like China for solutions. Right here in Canada, BC and Quebec are able to get transit built and operational far quicker than we do in Ontario. These ridiculous timelines might very well be localized to Ontario.

I agree with studying methods to expedite designs and lower construction labour costs could be very helpful.

But economically we are stating the obvious. Its becomes a study to illustrate the waste from decades of previous studies. Inflation alone has always been enough reason to not stop building and we shouldn't need a economist to state that in a report. We have reasonable conceptual plans developing requiring hundreds of billions in infrastructure alone. No study is required. Just build. Itll never be cheaper. Too many studies not enough results
 
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How are Vancouver's SkyTrain lines not subways?
They are, as far as Toronto is concerned. The Expo Line and Millenium Line are both the same technology as our Line 3.

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Montreal's Laval subway opened in 2007, if that counts.

I mean if you only want "true" subways, other than Toronto, you are asking about when Montreal last opened a line.
 
We need to arrest the rising costs and lengthening timelines of transit infrastructure in the GTHA, if we're going to have any hope of building the transit system we need. Rather than accept the status quo, Queen's Park should lead an investigation into:

1) Why do Ontario transit projects take as long as they do to begin construction? Other jurisdictions are able to begin subway construction within two or three years of proposal. Why does it take Ontario a decade to do the same. How can we change our regulations to speed up construction?

2) What is driving up the costs of construction? Is it the cost of materials, the cost of labour, or another factor? Could bringing in foreign workers help to reduce costs? (Yes, not a politically friendly option, but the economic costs of delaying infrastructure used by millions is far in excess of denying a few thousand locals some jobs)

3) Is the lack of competition on the construction industry a factor in high costs? Have we done enough to open up construction opportunities to international firms?

4) Is chronic underfunding of local and regional city planning and engineering staff increasing the amount of time necessary to plan these projects? Perhaps a funding boost to local planning and engineering would significantly speed up timelines? I know for a fact that this is a pretty big issue at Toronto City Planning.

5) Given the year-over-year increases in the price of construction, how much money are taxpayers losing due to the slow progress on these projects?

6) What tools are available to the to the government to ensure enough capital exists to get projects under construction in a more timely manner? Can the infrastructure bank help?

7) And overall, a comparison of transit building procedures and regulations in Ontario compared to other jurisdictions around the world.

We needn't look to distant counties like China for solutions. Right here in Canada, BC and Quebec are able to get transit built and operational far quicker than we do in Ontario. These ridiculous timelines might very well be localized to Ontario.

While there are doubtless reasons I'm not familiar with; I can provide a few answers.

1. It matters what you include in project costs. These costs are not strictly construction. They generally include any E.A. costs, planning costs, Business-case costs etc, as well as often including new rolling stock and storage for same. Historically there were no BCAs, EAs or their forerunners were much more scoped.

2. Choice of construction technique. We've moved to a program of primarily bored tunnel vs cut and cover construction. The former is typically cheaper in so far as it often requires less land acquisition; but the latter allows for much shallower construction, think of the original Line 1. With tunnels closer to the surface, so are stations, that saves a lot of $$. No mezzanine quite often.

3. Amenities. The original Yonge line had no escalators or elevators, and in fact, outside of Wellesely had no bus terminals south of Rosedale. The more stuff you tack on, the more expensive it gets.

4. Building Code/Fire Code. Today we require more elaborate ventilation, second exits, and a host of other precautions in the event of emergency.

5.Capacity. Even most Line 2 stations (Woodbine to Keele) are today very congested in rush hours. Their capacity was more than adequate when built. Now, we arguably err on the other side of the line, building very large, even cavernous stations. That said, it is cheaper to over-build, than re-build.

6.Modernity: More complex signal systems, and future proofing for platform-edge doors adds costs.

7. Financing; Earlier lines were paid for out of fare revenue, or by direct tax payer subsidy, meaning, no interest costs. Today's lines are often privately financed, which means not only are you paying interest on the entire cost, over a 30-year or so time period, but your doing so at commercial interest rates. This is huge, as commercial rates now would be in the area of 6%, just see what that adds to the project total over 30 years. (just over double)
 
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In respect of timeline, as opposed to cost, let me add the following.

1) The EA/BCA period is longer than it used to be.

2) By moving to private finance/design/build models we've also added RFQs before RFPs and the like.

3) By going deep w/tunnels/stations, there are considerably more water issues, and some geological ones as well, this complicates the design process.

****

Were one to look at Scarborough in particular; leaving aside the merits of the project, could one take costs and time, out?

Yes.

Scrap the underground bus terminal at STC, build the line shallow cut/cover, open-cut and bridge over Highland Creek and you shave a year of design off the project; and cut the cost by at least 500M.

You could also shave a year off construction.

Finance it from current revenues instead of debt and you save no less than 3% interest, yearly. More if the financing is private.

In the case of the former, deduct a good 40% off the cost.

That drops the price tag down down to something in the range of 1.8B?

Of course, there are consequences to those choices. Greater disruption of neighbourhoods. Less perfect urban planning choices. More traffic issues in the short term.
 
Of course, there are consequences to those choices. Greater disruption of neighbourhoods. Less perfect urban planning choices. More traffic issues in the short term.

A one stop extension is already a less perfect urban planning choice - any reduction in construction cost that can enable 2 more stops within the envelope is probably going to be a positive trade.

AoD
 
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1) Name me one subway built in the last 10 years in Canada? Skytrain, Ctrain, ETS, and Confederation lines do not count. They are not subways.

Just for classification purposes, I'd group things as follows:
Montreal Metro, TTC Lines 1,2,4 = Metro (Heavy Rail, Fully Segregated)
Montreal RER, Vancouver Skytrain (all lines), Ottawa Confederation Line, TTC Line 3 = Light Metro (Light Rail or very short Heavy Rail trains, Fully Grade Seperated)
ETS, CTrain, Ion, TTC Line 5 = Light Rail (Varying degrees of grade seperation, but in own ROW)

The real oddball line is the Canada Line, since it is actually using full heavy rail vehicles, but can only take 2 1/4 car trains if it was fully expanded.
 
We need to arrest the rising costs and lengthening timelines of transit infrastructure in the GTHA, if we're going to have any hope of building the transit system we need. Rather than accept the status quo, Queen's Park should lead an investigation into:

1) Why do Ontario transit projects take as long as they do to begin construction? Other jurisdictions are able to begin subway construction within two or three years of proposal. Why does it take Ontario a decade to do the same. How can we change our regulations to speed up construction?
First - why would we consider that Ontario/Queens Park can lead an unbiased investigation into these matters when "subway champion" MPPs are a current reality?

The reality is that there is no single answer to this, but unforced errors don't help, like:
  • Putting in platform doors and then taking them out and then realising they hold up the roof (Spadina Extension)
  • Designing an SSE alignment and then the guy who said the subway would only be $500m more than LRT for 3 stops says "hey don't cut down those trees I like"
  • Designing an SSE alignment, not liking the bill presented so then "value engineering" safety margins out of the line so it costs less
 

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