narduch
Senior Member
I actually wonder if the subway proponents are more interested in a subway then what's better for Scarborough
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OneCity
Senior Member
As of right now It also doesn't help subway proponents Tory's subway plan is over 6Km for one stop. But I have no sympathy for the hardened opponents when other options were provided and they chose to dig their heels from day one and refused to look for any form of compromise that would actually help move forward. So it is what it is.
It's never right to box all opposition in the same light as black or white as their are way too many variables and moving parts to this debate. I also believe many outside Scarborough opponents are people with good intentions that are genuinely convinced they're doing whats best for Scarborough in addition to their own financial interests. Realistically no plan tabled to date is without flaws so taking a hardened stance on any single plan without being open to modification has more to do with geographical bias on all sides of the debate and funding envy of starved City which has been left without a legitimate long term funding plan.
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Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Well, it depends on what your view of LRT is, I suppose. For a laymans perspective:
LRT on a street median = not so rapid.
LRT on it's own dedicated rapid transit corridor = rapid transit
The Scarborough LRT would have been the latter. I don't see it as cheapening out. It is more stations and just as rapid as the subway, but costs less. The transfer remains a complication, but I would have been open to spending a couple extra hundred millions to invest in a cross-platform transfer.
Sakraycore
Active Member
Good question but I suspect you will get different answers from different Scarborough residents. Because everyone is different after all.
While the subway represents a good improvement for a significant subset of Scarborough residents, I don't doubt there is a small subset that would actually be better off with the LRT. But in terms of the long term, I do believe the subway will work out better by far.
Cobra
Senior Member
For me the heart of the matter is this, which plan can deliver this to Scarborough Centre?
It's equally bad to just put the LRT in the same alignment and to keep STC as is. Unless you bury the LRT below the STC district, you can't have the above project.
Again, both sides are stubborn. The LRT side had multiple opportunities to modify the plan to alleviate the Kennedy Station problem and to completely reinvigorate STC so it could be a functional urban centre that could attract both residents and investors. Instead, it was SLRT as is or nothing. Why wasn't elevated Skytrain pushed? The SRT alignment is not as good as McCowan Road. Pushing Skytrain by showing residents Vancouver as an example would have had a better impact, but we'll never know.
I'm sorry, but all those years the LRT proponent had the floor at city hall, they never proposed an integrated plan that would revitalized STC with the LRT. Instead this is what they proposed:
The same but an LRT instead of the current fleet
As soon as the above plan to rejuvenate STC was thrown in the subway plan, I knew it was over and subway would win every votes from now on, even if 1 stop makes no sense and Smarttrack killed the 3 stop plan.
Putting aside LRT vs subways for a second, people wanted CHANGE!!! Something the LRT proponents never understood about Scarborough.
It's equally bad to just put the LRT in the same alignment and to keep STC as is. Unless you bury the LRT below the STC district, you can't have the above project.
Again, both sides are stubborn. The LRT side had multiple opportunities to modify the plan to alleviate the Kennedy Station problem and to completely reinvigorate STC so it could be a functional urban centre that could attract both residents and investors. Instead, it was SLRT as is or nothing. Why wasn't elevated Skytrain pushed? The SRT alignment is not as good as McCowan Road. Pushing Skytrain by showing residents Vancouver as an example would have had a better impact, but we'll never know.
I'm sorry, but all those years the LRT proponent had the floor at city hall, they never proposed an integrated plan that would revitalized STC with the LRT. Instead this is what they proposed:
The same but an LRT instead of the current fleet
As soon as the above plan to rejuvenate STC was thrown in the subway plan, I knew it was over and subway would win every votes from now on, even if 1 stop makes no sense and Smarttrack killed the 3 stop plan.
Putting aside LRT vs subways for a second, people wanted CHANGE!!! Something the LRT proponents never understood about Scarborough.
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Sakraycore
Active Member
the smart track is the part I don't really understand of Tory's package. Personally I have never used anything else other than buses, streetcars, and subways , for the entire period living here.
And I also don't know of anyone that does.
For sure stuff like GO is not likely to be used by the average person since it costs extra (?)
And I also don't know of anyone that does.
For sure stuff like GO is not likely to be used by the average person since it costs extra (?)
TOareaFan
Superstar
I just find it a bit humourous (and a tad convenient) how subway proponents discovered the mantra of "a decision has been made, for the sake of getting something built, let's all move on for the greater good"...shortly after the previous decision that was made was overturned in favour of a subway....where was the "let's get something built" sentiment before that? Why was so much effort made to overturn the previous plan if the most important thing was to "get something built"?
I spend very little time in Scarborough....have ridden the RT only a few times (always without problem, I might add) but my concern about this subway extension is on the regional attitude towards transit....it seems that we get the evidence, we study the numbers and then spend more money than needed building 1 level of transit higher than we need to......it is happening all over the region and, aside from it making no sense to me, it will ensure we run out of transit money long before we actually deliver transit to all the people that need it.
I spend very little time in Scarborough....have ridden the RT only a few times (always without problem, I might add) but my concern about this subway extension is on the regional attitude towards transit....it seems that we get the evidence, we study the numbers and then spend more money than needed building 1 level of transit higher than we need to......it is happening all over the region and, aside from it making no sense to me, it will ensure we run out of transit money long before we actually deliver transit to all the people that need it.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
The whole point of SmartTrack is that it wouldn't cost extra. Go Trains in Toronto would essentially become a part of the TTC network, so people could transfer between surface routes and Go Trains like they currently transfer between surface routes and the subway, with more service (4+ trains per hour/direction all day long) and more stations (one at nearly every arterial road).
Cobra
Senior Member
The previous attempt was NOT to overturn the LRT. There was a compromise by merging Scarborough to Eglinton Crosstown which was a costly upgrade, but upgrade nonetheless. Using your same words: Why was so much efforts effort made to overturn of the previous plan if the most important thing was to "get something built"?
syn
Senior Member
For me the heart of the matter is this, which plan can deliver this to Scarborough Centre?
It's equally bad to just put the LRT in the same alignment and to keep STC as is. Unless you bury the LRT below the STC district, you can't have the above project.
Again, both sides are stubborn. The LRT side had multiple opportunities to modify the plan to alleviate the Kennedy Station problem and to completely reinvigorate STC so it could be a functional urban centre that could attract both residents and investors. Instead, it was SLRT as is or nothing. Why wasn't elevated Skytrain pushed? The SRT alignment is not as good as McCowan Road. Pushing Skytrain by showing residents Vancouver as an example would have had a better impact, but we'll never know.
I'm sorry, but all those years the LRT proponent had the floor at city hall, they never proposed an integrated plan that would revitalized STC with the LRT. Instead this is what they proposed:
The same but an LRT instead of the current fleet
As soon as the above plan to rejuvenate STC was thrown in the subway plan, I knew it was over and subway would win every votes from now on, even if 1 stop makes no sense and Smarttrack killed the 3 stop plan.
Putting aside LRT vs subways for a second, people wanted CHANGE!!! Something the LRT proponents never understood about Scarborough.
If the entire plan to reinvigorate STC is based on getting a subway station then they're in trouble.
Subway stops have not turned the areas surrounding Warden and Kennedy stations into dense urban centres in the years they've been built.
Sheppard got an entire subway line, and change has been slow to nearly non-existent in stretches.
Scarborough, for many decades, has had 2 subway stops and a direct line connecting STC to Kennedy. This was there long before Scarborough became part of Toronto. This is a benefit no other suburb had, yet an STC boom didn't really happen.
Everyone wants change - Scarborough residents are not unique in that regard. It's one thing to want change, it's another to spend billions of dollars on something that makes no sense just for the sake of it.
The general rule of thumb is that you don't build a subway until there is density to support it - The first subway line in the city wasn't built until the streetcar line was maxed out.
As we've seen, a 'build it and they will come' approach doesn't really work. We have examples here in Toronto, but I guess we're not too keen on learning from the past.
OneCity
Senior Member
The areas around the stops you mention are not zoned for this type of development. Which is another debate all together. The Kennedy restriction will likely be lifted soon after the arrival of the subway to SCC and the addition of the Eglinton Crosstown and there is alot of Plaza land which can be re-purposed surrounding this stop in the coming decades.
The area will develop however the City plans and allows around the subway. The subway makes it much more attractive and convenient for both investors and commuters, it will also more than likely lead to the completion of the subway "belt" when Sheppard is built connecting the Core of Scarborough seamlessly to the City's backbone. I get the oppositions reasons not to care or agree with the costs, etc. But after the RT debacle it a tough see to residents in Scarborough the idea that the same attractiveness will be achieved with a transfer before SCC. And realistically it wouldn't be.
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Cobra
Senior Member
syn
Senior Member
Why is that?
Why didn't Scarborough City Council change zoning bylaws?
How did Mississauga manage greater growth than Scarborough without any subway or LRT lines to speak of?
A subway stop isn't a magic pill that's going to transform Scarborough.
syn
Senior Member
Exactly.
There was a plan in place, fully paid for, supported, and ready to go.
It would've been nearly done at this point.
syn
Senior Member
Nope.