Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[jcam]

Don't for get the let me "We deserve to dictate whats best for you" Downtown Political psychosis. Might as well put them all on the table

Still boggles my mind that somehow evidence-based, projection-based, comparison of planned usage to cost-effective technologies that can deliver the capacity can somehow be twisted to being 'political' or downtown elitist.

 

[salsa]

Still boggles my mind that somehow evidence-based, projection-based, comparison of planned usage to cost-effective technologies that can deliver the capacity can somehow be twisted to being 'political' or downtown elitist.

It reminds me of a Colbert quote on US politics: "the facts have a well-known Liberal bias."

 

[W. K. Lis]

Best subway extension, ever. No doubt about it. And best of all, we will all pay for it.

 

[salsa]

Then years later, York Region will also begin demanding the McCowan North Extension up to Markville Mall. And the politicans will bow down to them and give them a subway.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Congrats! York region will have a subway as of December 2017. No need for the YOnge line extension!

 

[syn]

A network with a mandatory transfer at Kennedy was too unpopular to be accepted. However, there have been some proposals that could result in a satisfactory network without the subway extension.

One such proposal is so-called SmartSpur; a branch of RER/SmartTrack taking over the elevated section of SRT and reaching Scarborough Centre. I don't know if the width of the corridor or the noise those large trains produce would block the idea. In any case, much more investment would have to be made in the rail corridor leading to Union (Uxbridge sub plus Scarborough Junction plus Lakeshore East) than Metrolinx and the City are currently willing to make. The whole proposal was never officially studied.

Another possibility is a continuous SRT-Eglinton light rail line. IMO, it would be viable only in combination with the Relief Line. The Relief line would have to be quickly built from downtown all the way to Eglinton East. Without that, Eglinton LRT would receive too many riders from Scarborough and get close to being overwhelmed right after opening.

I don't expect either of the above two proposals to be adopted. The ship has sailed.

Not really.

The LRT was accepted years ago - paid for too. For a while the majority of Scarborough residents were in favour of it.

Then Rob Ford produced his own live version of the Simpson's Monorail episode and it worked.

 

[Cobra]

Not really.

The LRT was accepted years ago - paid for too. For a while the majority of Scarborough residents were in favour of it.

Then Rob Ford produced his own live version of the Simpson's Monorail episode and it worked.

And you're quick to forget that before that, the LRT was also accepted when the MOU was there merging it with the Crosstown.

 

[syn]

If the alternative is more studies, more wasted time, only so we can debate more and create more options then YES, please proceed with the $3.5 Billion subway instead of attempting to force what is likely to be a close to $3 Billion rejected LRT. There is nothing that makes me believe a reasonable compromise can be found by our Politicians in a timely manner. They had that chance a decade ago and blew it. If the upper levels answer the call from Tory's lobbying efforts to fund Eglinton East I have little interest in reopening further debates. Ill certainly listen come election time. But to me enough is enough. Just build.

If we're talking about what the real costs would be, the subway is very likely to be close to $5 billion (or more). Right now it's nearly $4 billion, with a large margin for error/increase still involved.

We're also talking about an LRT line with a lot more flexibility.

Tory is willing to sell out the rest of the city to buy votes for the next election, all because a lot of Scarberians have convinced themselves they shouldn't have to make any transfers, unlike transit riders all over the rest of the city.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Tory is willing to sell out the rest of the city to buy votes for the next election, all because a lot of Scarberians have convinced themselves they shouldn't have to make any transfers, unlike transit riders all over the rest of the city.

I think Tory said it best in the council debate last week. For Scarborough residents, their perceived future experience with the subway extension is true. If they think they'll save 20 minutes on their commute, then it's true to them. In this sense, @OneCity is absolutely correct, Tory is more in-touch to the voters than the downtown elitists, and understands that propagating this alternative reality is what will get him re-elected.

The unfortunate reality is that more Scarborough residents will be on the bus for longer, and there will be marginal time savings at best for the people who live in the immediate vecinity of STC. We'll have dumped $5 billion into a hole in Scarborough while the DRL is no closer to getting shovels in the ground.

 

[syn]

I think Tory said it best in the council debate last week. For Scarborough residents, their perceived future experience with the subway extension is true. If they think they'll save 20 minutes on their commute, then it's true to them. In this sense, @OneCity is absolutely correct, Tory is more in-touch to the voters than the downtown elitists, and understands that propagating this alternative reality is what will get him re-elected.

The unfortunate reality is that more Scarborough residents will be on the bus for longer, and there will be marginal time savings at best for the people who live at STC. We'll have dumped $5 billion into a hole in Scarborough while the DRL is no closer to getting shovels in the ground.

Oh for sure. I wouldn't really call it 'in touch' though - it's nothing more than pandering.

I completely understand why Scarborough residents want this extension - but I also understand why it's a complete waste of money.

Tory wasn't elected to be Mayor of Scarborough - he was elected to be Mayor of Toronto. Instead he's doing his job as the former, at the expense of the rest of the city.

It's quite disappointing.

 

[pstogios]

Still boggles my mind that somehow evidence-based, projection-based, comparison of planned usage to cost-effective technologies that can deliver the capacity can somehow be twisted to being 'political' or downtown elitist.

I hear you brother.
But you shouldn't be surprised. There are a lot of twisted people in this world.

 

[OneCity]

Oh for sure. I wouldn't really call it 'in touch' though - it's nothing more than pandering.

I completely understand why Scarborough residents want this extension - but I also understand why it's a complete waste of money.

Tory wasn't elected to be Mayor of Scarborough - he was elected to be Mayor of Toronto. Instead he's doing his job as the former, at the expense of the rest of the city.

It's quite disappointing.

I agree with most of the post except Tory not being the Mayor of Toronto. He is very much in touch with the majority of the City he's not just pandering Scarborough voters, he is also doing the same for Downtown by lobbying for DRL & Waterfront LRT funding for. What he is not doing is giving a crap about is debating the costs when It comes to stop the never ending divide over "limited" funds and has taken a voice up to the upper levels for the cries of all areas. I may not agree with his all the details of his plan but I agree with his plan of attack towards funding the bigger picture and he seems want to see extensive transit funded everywhere in the City. For this reason Tory will have decent support thru-out the City just not with the most polarized hardened sides of the debates

The Councilors going on and on with the whole "evidence based" SLRT campaign is just more divisive rhetoric which is just firing up one side of the debate to be angry internally and inevitably wont help move us anywhere. Not that they don't have some good points but they missed the boat on compromise almost a decade ago and although there are some understandable "facts" there are also good "facts" on the other side of the SLRT-subway debate. Furthermore the debate isn't as binary as the make it seem and this could go on forever. We are hopefully not wasting another decade only to waster another decade after. The real evidence is we need to move on, shut up from internal bickering, support all areas, try to compromise in the future, and more importantly start lobbying first before areas like Vaughan walk away with more.

I don't love the Tory subway, but its a very good package if it gets funded. But most importantly im completely done with debates and lack of action because the Feds and Province are just starting to come to the table. We need more pressure and just get building everywhere

 

[pstogios]

The best thing about this thread is that I've learned that if Sean Spicer or Kellyanne Conway for some reason lose their jobs, some people here have become such excellent peddlers of Orwellian fiction and Trumpian logic that they are ripe candidates to slot right in. This thread should be renamed to "Training Ground for the Post-truth World".

 

[BurlOak]

It could have been LRT. They blew that chance, so here we are. Even as a subway supporter im torn between a better subway and running the risk of supporting a better subway proposal & possible having to backtrack into further studies or just moving forward with Tory's "package" if its funded as the Politics are too thick and disconnected on both sides of the SSE debate to both continuing the discussion

This is why the key to any opponents of the 1 stop subway was to reinforce that STC must be connected to Yonge without transfer.
Then there may have been some trust from the soft subway supporters.

 

[syn]

I agree with most of the post except Tory not being the Mayor of Toronto. He is very much in touch with the majority of the City he's not just pandering Scarborough voters, he is also doing the same for Downtown by lobbying for DRL & Waterfront LRT funding for. What he is not doing is giving a crap about is debating the costs when It comes to stop the never ending divide over "limited" funds and has taken a voice up to the upper levels for the cries of all areas. I may not agree with his all the details of his plan but I agree with his plan of attack towards funding the bigger picture and he seems want to see extensive transit funded everywhere in the City. For this reason Tory will have decent support thru-out the City just not with the most polarized hardened sides of the debates

The Councilors going on and on with the whole "evidence based" SLRT campaign is just more divisive rhetoric which is just firing up one side of the debate to be angry internally and inevitably wont help move us anywhere. Not that they don't have some good points but they missed the boat on compromise almost a decade ago and although there are some understandable "facts" there are also good "facts" on the other side of the SLRT-subway debate. Furthermore the debate isn't as binary as the make it seem and this could go on forever. We are hopefully not wasting another decade only to waster another decade after. The real evidence is we need to move on, shut up from internal bickering, support all areas, try to compromise in the future, and more importantly start lobbying first before areas like Vaughan walk away with more.

I don't love the Tory subway, but its a very good package if it gets funded. But most importantly im completely done with debates and lack of action because the Feds and Province are just starting to come to the table. We need more pressure and just get building everywhere

The DRL is desperately needed. The Yonge Line is already at or over capacity. Supporting it isn't pandering, it's a legitimate project that should've been built many years ago.

The Scarborough Subway extension is not - it's not supported by any real facts or evidence. That's why it's pandering.

If Tory was working in the interest of the entire city, the DRL would be the priority project.

If he truly cared about the residents of Scarborough, he'd be looking at implementing a transit solution that offered the best coverage based on real ridership figures. Instead he's pandering to Scarborough residents base insecurities about not being cared for enough by everyone else in Toronto simply because they have to make a transfer at Kennedy.

And are you seriously suggesting evidence and fact based arguments are 'divisive rhetoric'??!?

Really??

If I stub my toe tomorrow I'll go to the Emergency Room. If they tell me it's not an emergency and that the guy who was just stabbed is a priority, I'll just tell them to stop using divisive rhetoric and won't leave until my toe feels better about itself!