Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I find it funny that this very argument is being done in Surrey as well. They want an LRT, but the cost will be the same as Skytrain.

I also find it ironic that what is good for one is also god for the other.

I will never think LRT is the solution. It should not be the main way to get somewhere major.

ridiculous. Eglinton is and LRT. Most streetcars are (slow) LRT.

 

[pstogios]

Our Chief Planner tweeted this map a day or two back. (she clarified that it needs updating) I thought it had an interesting connection to the subway extension.

The map shows where the City has, or is in the process of, doing Avenues Studies. Keesmaat's tweet was aimed at demonstrating that the City has lots of opportunity for intensification and these Avenues are where it is already set up to happen, on an "as of right" basis.

The conclusions that I would draw with respect to the Subway extension is
- the one-stop subway will do absolutely nothing to connect or enhance Avenue areas in Scarborough, nor does it bring people closer to the local employment areas
- in contrast, the Kingston Road LRT is a gamechanger and we could have a really wonderful redevelopment along Kingston Road if it is built quickly. KR, and not STC, is Scarborough's "best foot forward" for a renewed and more vibrant city...Sheppard being Plan B or Area B
- It won't be long before the battle intensifies to do something about transit on Sheppard, and it won't be above certain Councillors to say that without a subway up there Scarborough is once again getting screwed (I don't buy the latter, but the case for a seamless transit line from Downsview certainly is supported by the Avenues thrusts)
- Lawrence East is interesting. I could see the argument for ST with a Lawrence stop being clung to since the subway, even with a stop added at Lawrence, will be too far east to support development where it is contemplated on Lawrence (although this also would have been a good argument for the pro-LRT folks, and it didn't figurre in the recent debate)

- Paul

View attachment 103704

This is meant with no disrespect to you for bringing this up or to the Chief Planner, but pointing to this is useless.

This whole SSE debacle makes the following infinitely clear: Higher-order goes where politics dictates it should go. All that planning effort and money spent are worth about as much as that penny that was taken out of circulation.

Keesmaat's publicity campaigns are as effective at getting the attention of the powers-that-be as the chirping of a squirrel would be at Times Square.

The powers-that-be in Toronto city council and the Ontario government don't give two shits about Avenues. All they care about is votes and that means feeding the "Respect Scarborough" psychosis.

 

[OneCity]

The SLRT wasn't doing much for avenues or SCC.

 

[salsa]

Our Chief Planner tweeted this map a day or two back. (she clarified that it needs updating) I thought it had an interesting connection to the subway extension.

The conclusions that I would draw with respect to the Subway extension is
- the one-stop subway will do absolutely nothing to connect or enhance Avenue areas in Scarborough, nor does it bring people closer to the local employment areas
- in contrast, the Kingston Road LRT is a gamechanger and we could have a really wonderful redevelopment along Kingston Road if it is built quickly. KR, and not STC, is Scarborough's "best foot forward" for a renewed and more vibrant city...Sheppard being Plan B or Area B
- It won't be long before the battle intensifies to do something about transit on Sheppard, and it won't be above certain Councillors to say that without a subway up there Scarborough is once again getting screwed (I don't buy the latter, but the case for a seamless transit line from Downsview certainly is supported by the Avenues thrusts)
- Lawrence East is interesting. I could see the argument for ST with a Lawrence stop being clung to since the subway, even with a stop added at Lawrence, will be too far east to support development where it is contemplated on Lawrence (although this also would have been a good argument for the pro-LRT folks, and it didn't figurre in the recent debate)

- Paul

View attachment 103704

I agree completely with the bolded statement. However the subway serves a different purpose, which is to connect an "urban centre" (the red area) with higher order transit to promote intensification. But yes I think the Crosstown extension will be more transformative for Scarborough than this one stop subway. Unfortunately it's not getting the attention it deserves.

 

[Sakraycore]

Any kind of LRT is only exciting to a small subset of Scarborough whereas a subway station is exciting to a much larger percentage of Scarborough residents. For example, the Sheppard LRT would be really exciting to me (but is indefinitely postponed), even more exciting than a subway, but the SSE subway would still be much more exciting to me than an Eglinton LRT since that one doesn't really affect me at all.

It's easy to see the broad appeal of a subway station. A subway station in the urban center of Scarborough affects all Scarborough residents to some extent.

 

[jje1000]

The SLRT wasn't doing much for avenues or SCC.

Neither is this one-stop line to the STC if you discount the Eglinton East extension.

The issue with the SRT was its low reliability and the fact that the lands around it were locked from development.

 

[OneCity]

Neither is this one-stop line to the STC if you discount the Eglinton East extension.

The issue with the SRT was its low reliability and the fact that the lands around it were locked from development.

You're confusing two separate issues. Both need addressed, not lumped as one or have residents pitted to choose between. It could have been done much more cost effect had council not been so hard headed.

The "One stop" addresses the major issue of connecting SCC as a main hub which it is planned to be and should have been from the start. Agree or not, this is the issue here. The local "Avenues" is a different concern all together. The all LRT really only dealt with "Avenues" and not connectivity. The SLRT didnt even to much for "Avenues". It was Eglinton East and Sheppard ELRT that would have more less. The LRT plan didn't put much weight into the future importance SCC to residents and didnt put a reasonable weighting on the location of transfers all together. It not a choice between one or the other and to some extend Ford vs. Miller has made it that way. But I would say atleast Ford compromised on a solution and Miller to this day seems to be in denial

Its only under Tory we have a proposal to deal with both issues. Unfortunately his subway plan is complete overkill, but its not like the opposition was offered a sweeter deal to address this issue and we need to move forward, very soon. If Eglinton East LRT is funded ill be on board as I dont want any further delays. Otherwise ill support the best subway plan and we can look at BRT/LRT or whatever down the road to address "Avenues"

 

[jje1000]

The problem with the notion of the need of "connecting" the STC is that it's already connected by the SRT. Of course, it's not a particularity good connection, but travel times are not tremendously unsimilar to those offered by the subway. Instead, the money should've been put into upgrading and improving the SRT and seamlessly connecting it to the Eglinton LRT as the eastern terminus of the line.

Then- again if Scarborough really needs a subway, the money should've been put towards extending the Sheppard line towards STC (I doubt both the Feds and provincial governments would have hesitated to redirect the money in these vote-rich suburbs)- meaning that the STC would have at least two transit routes terminating at it, which is far more attractive than just one.

I think Royson James puts it well:

• Good transit provides a network of options that moves masses of commuters effectively where they need to go. Most jurisdictions can’t afford a subway to everywhere so the wise course is to provide movement along the essential corridors where citizens connect.

• In a tight economy, decision makers do cost-benefit analyses and deliver the best bang for the buck.

• And they use universal, tried-and-tested measurements to evaluate options, striving to remove partisan and parochial and political influence from polluting the outcome.

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...nanigans-are-causing-civic-suicide-james.html

3, 4, heck even 5 billion towards a 6km tunnel that doesn't improve coverage and only marginally improves transit time is NOT a good use of our money. People need to stop thinking that city building is like a game of Simcity where everything can be rebuilt as many times as necessary to make it perfect. Things will never be perfect IRL, and in fact, it's ideally more of a matter of using our resources in most efficient manner possible (real life though, proves that it can and will be hijacked by politicos looking for their reelection ticket).

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Then- again if Scarborough really needs a subway, the money should've been put towards extending the Sheppard line towards STC (I doubt both the Feds and provincial governments would have hesitated to redirect the money in these vote-rich suburbs)- meaning that the STC would have at least two transit routes terminating at it, which is far more attractive than just one.

That is step two.

Step one is the Bloor extension.

 

[jje1000]

A very, very distant "step 2" at this point with no updated planning done and more importantly, no money allocated (goodness knows how much money the 6km deep-bored tunnel will cost once engineering gets further along and we get a full idea of the conditions).

It might be built at some point, but I doubt before 2030.

 

[OneCity]

The problem with the notion of the need of "connecting" the STC is that it's already connected by the SRT. Of course, it's not a particularity good connection, but travel times are not tremendously unsimilar to those offered by the subway. Instead, the money should've been put into upgrading and improving the SRT and seamlessly connecting it to the Eglinton LRT as the eastern terminus of the line.

Then- again if Scarborough really needs a subway, the money should've been put towards extending the Sheppard line towards STC (I doubt both the Feds and provincial governments would have hesitated to redirect the money in these vote-rich suburbs)- meaning that the STC would have at least two transit routes terminating at it, which is far more attractive than just one.

I think Royson James puts it well:



https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...nanigans-are-causing-civic-suicide-james.html

3, 4, heck even 5 billion towards a 6km tunnel that doesn't improve coverage and only marginally improves transit time is NOT a good use of our money. People need to stop thinking that city building is like a game of Simcity where everything can be rebuilt as many times as necessary to make it perfect. Things will never be perfect IRL, and in fact, it's ideally more of a matter of using our resources in most efficient manner possible (real life though, proves that it can and will be hijacked by politicos looking for their reelection ticket).

It could have been LRT. They blew that chance, so here we are. Even as a subway supporter im torn between a better subway and running the risk of supporting a better subway proposal & possible having to backtrack into further studies or just moving forward with Tory's "package" if its funded as the Politics are too thick and disconnected on both sides of the SSE debate to both continuing the discussion

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

A very, very distant "step 2" at this point with no updated planning done and more importantly, no money allocated (goodness knows how much money the 6km deep-bored tunnel will cost once engineering gets further along and we get a full idea of the conditions).

It might be built at some point, but I doubt before 2030.

If Scarborough wants a subway, the politicians will bow to them and give them a subway.

Then York Region will begin demanding the Yonge North extension. And the politicians will bow to them and give them a subway.

I don't know what this means for the Relief Line, or for Toronto's subway network. No Scarborough resident will be able to use the Yonge subway at rush hour at this rate, anyway.

 

[OneCity]

If Scarborough wants a subway, the politicians will bow to them and give them a subway.

Then York Region will begin demanding the Yonge North extension. And the politicians will bow to them and give them a subway.

I don't know what this means for the Relief Line, or for Toronto's subway network. No Scarborough resident will be able to use the Yonge subway at rush hour at this rate, anyway.

Would help if some councillors spend less time fighting against Scarborough transit and more time lobbying for the DRL. Just like Vaughan/Rich Hill does and will do. Putting the pressure on those than can build rather than fighting within for decades will be the best way.

If our Politicians sound bites and media headlines were about putting pressure and attack on on the Province and Fed something might actually get built. Instead they are pitting residents against each other in an endless loop and poisoning our Politics as we see today. Continuing to fight internally will do nothing for this City.

 

[Young Stats]

If Scarborough wants a subway, the politicians will bow to them and give them a subway.

Then York Region will begin demanding the Yonge North extension. And the politicians will bow to them and give them a subway.

Then years later, York Region will also begin demanding the McCowan North Extension up to Markville Mall. And the politicans will bow down to them and give them a subway.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Then years later, York Region will also begin demanding the McCowan North Extension up to Markville Mall. And the politicans will bow down to them and give them a subway.

Heh, yah. And then Scarborough will realize what it means when voters in Markham are deemed more important than voters in Malvern.

Maybe some councillors need to spend less time fighting against Scarborough transit and more time lobbying for the DRL. Just like Vaughan/Rich Hill does and will do. Put the pressure on those than can build rather than fighting within for decades.

If our Politicians quotes, snippets and media headlines were about putting pressure and attack on on the Province and Fed something might actually get built. Instead they are pitting residents against each other in an endless loop and poisoning our Politics as we see today. Continuing to fight internally will do nothing for this City.

Would you prefer the public, the media, and the non-Scarborough politicians allow the construction of a probably $5 billion subway extension that makes no sense be built, with zero accountability?