Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

yet you arent causing a big fuss about it or the lack of cut and cover.Are you writing your politicians... as long as you get a version of a subway it doesnt seem to matter how much it costs because you arent paying for it.

Maybe I have wrote my Politicians about it? Such an odd comment as I have repeatedly mentioned my support for cut and cover if savings can be found. So not sure what this had to do with me or the question I asked @dowlingm

Can't you stop this talk?? You can't resist this. You got banned for it before.

Actually I was banned for responding to your constant personal attacks by allowing myself to drop down to your level and responded back in the same inappropriate manner. Apologies to everyone.

Moving forward we disagree, that's fine. Post your opinion on any related discussion but please chill on the bullying.

 

[Rainforest]

yet you arent causing a big fuss about it or the lack of cut and cover.Are you writing your politicians... as long as you get a version of a subway it doesnt seem to matter how much it costs because you arent paying for it.

I contribute to this project, through my taxes. Same applies to other government-funded transit projects.

The cost of cancelling this subway would be huge; loss of good will and a complete paralysis of the city council when it comes to funding any transit expansions. I don't want that to happen, and therefore will continue to support SSE as much as I can.

 

[Rainforest]

Moving the discussion does not answer my question....you said the difference in cost per rider (new and existing) was not much different between the two options....I just asked if, in your mind, 175% was "not that much"....is it? It seems to me it is nearly double.

Obviously, 77,000 is greater than 44,000. My point is that the difference is not 5-fold or 10-fold.

There is no hard rule that an investment of, say 60,000 per rider is a threshold, and if it is more than that, the project should be considered wasteful.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Did Toronto pay for Vaughans portion of the extension?

Also Downtown Politicians (and their media friends) are not involved in Vaughans Politics. So Vaughan gets their own voice to grow without extra delay. Scarborough get rejected and has their voice washed out.

Even with the unfortunate matter of the subway of being only one stop. 19 out 20 Politicians support it Scarborough. Why are we still trying to drag this out further? This is not good Politically and people need to understand the reverse effect its having.

Of course not. Vaughan isn't in Toronto; Scarborough is.

What Toronto did pay for is part of the costs associated with the portion of the line within Toronto, between Downsview and Steeles. I've yet to hear any significant complaints about that, from downtown folk or otherwise.

 

[Rainforest]

10 minutes faster than SRT?

That's going to be quite the challenge, given the TTC-published travel time from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre is only 9 minutes.

I guess they'll be using some kind of wormhole then - no wonder it's getting pricey.

Can the SRT actually travel 7 km in 9 min? That would be about 47 kph average speed, including the time spent at stops.

I don't travel SRT on a regular basis, has been there about 6 months ago. As I remember, it was closer to 12 or 14 minutes.

Anyway, perhaps I was wrong about 10 min saving in the travel time alone. 5 to 7 min may be a better estimate, given that both lines will have almost same length and the only difference is 3 extra stops on SRT.

 

[Hopkins123]

SmartTrack is dead. The Murray Plan wuld cost 1 billion less than this boondoggle and we quiet the critics. Plus what Hopkins said. The Murray plan also allows for an extension to Malvern and also won't cut off former SRT riders, who will just go to the don mills part of the DRL line in the future if this gets built.

I believe we cannot go back because there is not enough room for Smarttrack and the subway line here. Even though I dont think smarttrack exists it is holding us back. Also if we went that route we would find out that there would be substantial costs of making a new Kennedy station. I may not have all the details right. However I am bright enough to know that we could have had Sheppard completed, the Rt converted, a LRT on Lawrence and shoot why not one on Finch east for the same price. Some people think Im anti scarborough when in fact I am anti wasteful spending. But I no longer live in Scarborough so only people with posta codes there such as one city should have a say.

This is what the Murray plan could look like if implemented today:



Although Glen Murray's original proposal omitted a stop at Ellesmere, I added it back in for posterity (not too sure if this is possible because of the curvature, but maybe they could make it work). Also for the same pricetag as the one-stop extension via McCowan Road, we could still build a subway that serves Sheppard East @Mccowan and probably even affords us 1-2 more stations north to Woodside Square.

I like this because it really alleviates all the east-west bus corridors through Scarborough, taking pressure off of YUS and allows us to keep the terminal at Scarborough Centre in the same location saving $$ from not having to rebuild everything from scratch.

 

[Tuck]

Can't you stop this talk?? You can't resist this. You got banned for it before.

NOBODY HATES SCARBOROUGH!

There is no "Political Media" --- these voices are representing people that HATE WASTING MONEY!!!!

We don't have the money in this city to waste in places where the density and demand doesn't warrant it!!! And the price keeps going up and up and up!!!

How much is too much for this one stop?????? $5 billion? $10 billion? $20 billion? All to feed your "Respect Scarborough" nonsense??? When will you stop taking all of us hostage just to satiate your inferiority complex???

I like you, lets be friends.

Unfortunately looks like this thing is going through no matter how much it costs. Toronto transit planning at its finest.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

And the Downtown Political Media is The little boy who cried Wolf.

But not only did the others start ignoring them, worse.. This bully rhetoric created an opposite reflection in our Politics. Your picking on the nicer of the two. Careful

Can't you stop this talk?? You can't resist this. You got banned for it before.

NOBODY HATES SCARBOROUGH!

There is no "Political Media" --- these voices are representing people that HATE WASTING MONEY!!!!

We don't have the money in this city to waste in places where the density and demand doesn't warrant it!!! And the price keeps going up and up and up!!!

How much is too much for this one stop?????? $5 billion? $10 billion? $20 billion? All to feed your "Respect Scarborough" nonsense??? When will you stop taking all of us hostage just to satiate your inferiority complex???

Was Murrays 1.8$b. plan really studied or just an estimated? I certainly agree it would have saved valuable time.

Maybe I have wrote my Politicians about it? Such an odd comment as I have repeatedly mentioned my support for cut and cover if savings can be found. So not sure what this had to do with me or the question I asked @dowlingm



Actually I was banned for responding to your constant personal attacks by allowing myself to drop down to your level and responded back in the same inappropriate manner. Apologies to everyone.

Moving forward we disagree, that's fine. Post your opinion on any related discussion but please chill on the bullying.

The problem is for all the whining about the downtown media. A lot of these people vote conservative all the time. So if the conservatives get in and pull out, it's not like they can blame downtown at that point.

I contribute to this project, through my taxes. Same applies to other government-funded transit projects.

The cost of cancelling this subway would be huge; loss of good will and a complete paralysis of the city council when it comes to funding any transit expansions. I don't want that to happen, and therefore will continue to support SSE as much as I can.

That's why we have to find a cheaper solution. I think it will cause some problems if canceled, but people will move on. It won't be the end of the world.

This is what the Murray plan could look like if implemented today:



Although Glen Murray's original proposal omitted a stop at Ellesmere, I added it back in for posterity (not too sure if this is possible because of the curvature, but maybe they could make it work). Also for the same pricetag as the one-stop extension via McCowan Road, we could still build a subway that serves Sheppard East @Mccowan and probably even affords us 1-2 more stations north to Woodside Square.

I like this because it really alleviates all the east-west bus corridors through Scarborough, taking pressure off of YUS and allows us to keep the terminal at Scarborough Centre in the same location saving $$ from not having to rebuild everything from scratch.

I don't know anyone that would be against this. It makes too much sense for toronto though. Covers more ground and will get much more riders.

 

[TOareaFan]

Obviously, 77,000 is greater than 44,000. My point is that the difference is not 5-fold or 10-fold.

There is no hard rule that an investment of, say 60,000 per rider is a threshold, and if it is more than that, the project should be considered wasteful.

it is nearly 2-fold....and that to me seems a lot....but to each his own.

 

[pstogios]

Moving forward we disagree, that's fine. Post your opinion on any related discussion but please chill on the bullying.

Respond to my question.

How much is too much to satiate your Everyone Hates Scarborough psychosis?

 

[44 North]

Time to put this Brimley thing to rest already.

• Brimley is just 200 metres shorter than McCowan, so there is very little savings in cost or travel time to be had.
• Most bus routes would have to travel longer to get to Brimley,
• McCowan attracts approx 1,000 more net new riders than Brimley.
• McCowan results in 500 more boardings in the morning peak hour than Brimley, and 3,800 additional riders throughout the day
• McCowan results in a better-placed station within the wider context of the entire planning for STC and adjacent areas, notably the equally large “McCowan Precinct” east of McCowan.

Big benefit of Brimley tho is that it may allow for a more optimal/affordable/shallower Lawrence E station.

I was just thinking the same thing and hunting for the diagram of the single-bore subway. There has to be a lot of space down below the rails for something.

This was mentioned on p.9 of the value engineering report (The tunnel will become a linear infrastructure corridor and there is a potential to use the space in the bottom of the tunnel for utilities). Don't know if it could be a trunk sewer, but surely something since the large diameter provides ample space. This single bore concept is very new for Toronto, so it's interesting to follow. The only tunnel diagram I know of can be found in the Environmental Project report.

One thing I'd be interested in is how the SC station can look. People are giddy about the architecture of TYSSE stations, but I don't really see the grandeur. Sure there's whimsy, but when I think of large nice stations (from platform level) I think Montreal or DC. In other words not much in the way of a concourse, rather a platform that's tall and open from end to end. Since SC will use side platforms, and every one of Montreal's does, maybe we can borrow ideas from there.

This is what the Murray plan could look like if implemented today:

As Burloak mentioned the Murray plan would've cannibalized the original Line 3 extension's routing. And personally I think it would make the most sense to do so. This was studied in a buried report.

 

[BurlOak]

This is what the Murray plan could look like if implemented today:



Although Glen Murray's original proposal omitted a stop at Ellesmere, I added it back in for posterity (not too sure if this is possible because of the curvature, but maybe they could make it work). Also for the same pricetag as the one-stop extension via McCowan Road, we could still build a subway that serves Sheppard East @Mccowan and probably even affords us 1-2 more stations north to Woodside Square.

I like this because it really alleviates all the east-west bus corridors through Scarborough, taking pressure off of YUS and allows us to keep the terminal at Scarborough Centre in the same location saving $$ from not having to rebuild everything from scratch.

The Murray plan went from STC to Centennial to Sheppard (West of Markham Road).

I looked it up and the Ellesmere Station was dropped for cost and lack of ridership. The curve starts about 20m south of Ellesmere, so the (provision for future) Station would be a little south (and on the east side) of the current one.

 

[OneCity]

The Murray plan went from STC to Centennial to Sheppard (West of Markham Road).

I looked it up and the Ellesmere Station was dropped for cost and lack of ridership. The curve starts about 20m south of Ellesmere, so the (provision for future) Station would be a little south (and on the east side) of the current one.

This was a great plan and resolved the issue but hard to believe it could be built for $1.8B?

 

[WislaHD]

SmartTrack is dead. The Murray Plan wuld cost 1 billion less than this boondoggle and we quiet the critics. Plus what Hopkins said. The Murray plan also allows for an extension to Malvern and also won't cut off former SRT riders, who will just go to the don mills part of the DRL line in the future if this gets built.

This is what the Murray plan could look like if implemented today:



Although Glen Murray's original proposal omitted a stop at Ellesmere, I added it back in for posterity (not too sure if this is possible because of the curvature, but maybe they could make it work). Also for the same pricetag as the one-stop extension via McCowan Road, we could still build a subway that serves Sheppard East @Mccowan and probably even affords us 1-2 more stations north to Woodside Square.

I like this because it really alleviates all the east-west bus corridors through Scarborough, taking pressure off of YUS and allows us to keep the terminal at Scarborough Centre in the same location saving $$ from not having to rebuild everything from scratch.

The Murray plan is really the best option at this point. There is no need for suburban stations to bring about substantial redevelopment as their purpose is largely in connecting feeder bus routes. It is not like the one-stop 6km subway was going to bring about redevelopment along its 6km tunnel anywho.

This was a great plan and resolved the issue but hard to believe it could be built for $1.8B?

More, but definitely less than the one-stop subway?

The big question mark is the SRT corridor. It sounds like from the latest reports that they found using the corridor as highly undesirable.

Would this alignment be tunnelled or on the surface? I believe the original plan was tunnelled, but can tunnelled be done without major service disruption to the SRT until the station reconstruction takes place?

 

[kEiThZ]

. I think it will cause some problems if canceled, but people will move on.

Sure. People will move on. After a Doug Ford mayoralty.

I have no sympathy for the politicians involved in this or even the public. I was in high school in 1995 and hearing about the SRT being extended to Malvern. They did nothing for 20 years and now the subway has become a test of loyalty for just enough Scarborough residents to swing elections.

The politicians and public throughout the city absolutely deserve this. If we had suburban rail, we wouldn't have the same demand for subway. And if we had extended the SRT all those years back, the pitch to go with LRT would have been more palatable. Heck, this subway would have been a lot cheaper if we built this instead of the Sorbara Express.

It's going to get built because no provincial or federal candidate running in Scarborough wants to be part of the team that cut the subway.

And here's the kicker. Notice how nobody is offering more stops with the LRT than what they originally did. There is still nobody saying, "For $3 billion we will bring back the Malvern Terminus as promised and build Eglinton East for Scarborough."